Pre grouping RTR

[dube]

Theres some pre grouping coming from the big 2 With Bachmann doing the southern birdcage coaches and c class in SECR, class E4 in LB&SCR, Jinty in SDJR, the GWR 3700 class, a collectors club 9J and the midland compound set and Hornby with an M7 in LSWR and an N2 class in GNR, and the NRM commissions that sell well enough at a premium, I think a bit more rolling stock and we could see this era become more popular and not just for those who can build kits

[Poggy1165]

That mix listed is very nice. But unless you model an imaginary preserved railway there is a serious shortage of coaches and an even more serious shortage of wagons. So, unless the RTR people are going to get really busy with pre-group stuff, there will still need to be an awful lot of kit/scratch building needed to model any given pre-group line, and that will always put the majority off. 

 

The irony is that a lot of this pre-group stuff lasted until the 1950s. If you are modelling a 1950s branch line, pre group coaches are (generally) more correct than Mark 1 main line stock. As for the goods trains, the pre-group stuff was still mixed in with the rest well into that decade. 

 

Whether the manufacturers are missing a trick or not I wouldn't like to say. I suspect that if (say) a complete range of LBSC models became available, we would see a sudden rash of LBSC layouts. But I am certainly not going to hold my breath. For myself, I am waiting for Hornby to see the light and introduce a comprehensive range of 7mm scale GCR prototypes.   I can't think what they are waiting for.

[CKPR]

The real omission is surely r-t-r NER locomotives, such as the J27 and Q6 that were still running in 1966-7. I've always thought it a bit odd that Hornby have put out a range of NER buildings but no NER locomotives or rolling stock (except for a NER refrigerated wagon )

[Nick Holliday]

Just a minor point - the S&DJR Jinty can hardly be called pre-grouping - although in the livery of a pre-grouping company, the locos were built in 1929, several years after grouping, by which time most of the real pre-grouping liveries would have disappeared. Similarly, the Bachman S&DJR liveried No 88 only arrived on the line in 1925.

[buffalo]

Just a minor point - the S&DJR Jinty can hardly be called pre-grouping - although in the livery of a pre-grouping company, the locos were built in 1929, several years after grouping, by which time most of the real pre-grouping liveries would have disappeared. Similarly, the Bachman S&DJR liveried No 88 only arrived on the line in 1925.

 

The S&DJR, as its title suggests was a joint railway and was never subject to the grouping. Most of its wagons were divided between the parent companies, LSWR and MR, in 1914 and all that happened in 1923 was that the parent companies became parts of the SR and LMS respectively. In January 1930 the LMS took over the motive power. The Jinties, or Bagnalls as known locally, were mostly moved to other parts of the LMS where their screw reversers would have been more beneficial. It's unlikely that any had not been repainted in LMS black by the mid-thirties.

 

No 7F was never painted blue when in service with the S&D, LMS or BR. The recent painting of No 88 in this colour is just a preservation attempt to represent an old S&D livery. The Bachmann model has the smaller boiler as originally fitted to the 1914 builds. This was not fitted to No 88, then 53808, until Dec 1953.

 

As to the Bachmann Cities. The basic model is CoT as preserved and all models, irrespective of plates, carry post-grouping features.

 

Nick

[Karhedron]

Part of the problem with pre-grouping stock is the variety available. To take the GWR for example, although Toplight coaches lasted into BR days, it would be tricky to choose which diagrams to model. Compared to later stock, "Toplight" coaches tended to come in smaller batches with differences between diagrams. Add to that some of the long-lived examples were rebuilt with flush-sides IICR.

 

Whilst I would certainly like more older stock, I think the economics of the situation are against us for RTR. I think the best we can realistically hope for is more Big-4 stock. A nice range of GWR bow-ended stock (particularly in N gauge) wuold be very welcome.

[Andy Hayter]

While I too would welcome an NER loco, this is not the real omission.

 

As others have said it is stock to run behind what is available.

 

SECR - 3 versions now available for the C class and 5 wagons - but no brake van.  Birdcage coaches promised but not in the near future, I fear.

LYR tank - nothing rtr to run with it.

GCR - 9J, Director and ROD - nothing to run with it rtr.

LBSCR - terrier but nothing to run with it.  Ditto the promised E4.

and so it goes with the few other 00 offerings.

 

Looked at in its entirety we have a scatter gun approach, where even with the locos few would have been seen in combination with others.

 

Where this leads me is to thinking that pre-grouping modellers will be building kits and scratch building for many years to come - which may be no bad thing of course.  The big hurdle being that the model press seem to have universally dropped providing scale drawing of stock - generally not just pre-grouping.  (I have not bought an RM for a long time so that may not be completely correct.)

[Jol Wilkinson]

Although research on pre-grouping stuff can be quite difficult, locos and rolling stock are usually quite well covered by the information available through the line societies, commercial publications, etc.

 

However, the RTR manufactures seem to favour modelling items that still exist through th efforts of the preservation societies, etc., which means that the majority of pre-group locos, carriages, etc. will probably forever be down to what the kit manufacturers have produced. Fortunately we are pretty well served in that regard.

 

Jol

[brianusa]

There have been a couple of attempts to bring pregrouping locos to market.  True, the rolling stock situation is dire but engines are the main attraction.  To go too far along these lines would mean backdating everything, buildings, traffic (or lack thereof), people even; in other words a separate layout.  Surely the best way would be to do as the prototype rebuilders are doing, using the locos with modern stock, which would be prototypical at least.

 

Brian.

[Jol Wilkinson]

Brian,

 

pre-group infrastructure lasted a long time, so it's arguably easier to build a pre-group layout and run it in later periods. So pre-group locos with post group rolling stock and pre-group buildings, etc. would fairly well replicate the Big 4 in the thirties and forties.

 

But if you really want to model pre-group you will need to do some model making.

 

Jol

[JimF51]

.....Surely the best way would be to do as the prototype rebuilders are doing, using the locos with modern stock, which would be prototypical at least.

 

Brian.

 

Being in the US, with access to correct rolling stock kits strictly limited to a long distance mail order, that will be my situation for a while. There will most likely be a few RTR wagons of a more recent era running behind my C Class, as they are available from a couple of dealers over here. I'll just try and sell them on the cheap, when I can replace them.

 

Jim F

[Jol Wilkinson]

Being in the US, with access to correct rolling stock kits strictly limited to a long distance mail order, that will be my situation for a while. There will most likely be a few RTR wagons of a more recent era running behind my C Class, as they are available from a couple of dealers over here. I'll just try and sell them on the cheap, when I can replace them.

 

Jim F

Don't the same supply restrictions apply to obtaining most RTR products? Most kit producers are willing and able to supply overseas customers, so I wouldn't think it is too much of a problem.

 

A couple of suppliers that I know  even get asked to supply all the "optional" parts, wheels, etc. which, despite not having them in stock themselves, normally go out of their way to do.

[Andy Hayter]

Interestingly Cambrian specifically exclude sales to NA due to liability insurance issues.

That coupled with the difficulties in obtaining "authentic" coloured paints does make pre-grouping modelling an even bigger challenge.

[billbedford]

Mmmm, most pre grouping railways had their own difficulties obtaining "authentic" coloured paints and relied on their paintshop foremen to be reasonably constantly skilled in paint matching.

[JimF51]

Yes, Cambrian is one mfr. that definitely comes to mind. Metcalfe is another company that has stopped selling direct to the US, but they don't claim it's insurance related.

 

And yes, it does apply to buying RTR locos, but one doesn't need to purchase additional items to go with it, as has been mentioned (wheels, motors, lettering, couplers, etc..), and the larger shops over there will more likely carry them, but not the kits one might need.

 

One definite advantage being over here, is that it is highly unlikely anyone seeing my efforts will know that my rolling stock might not be era correct, or that any colors I mix up will not be spot on correct

 

Jim F

[t-b-g]

RTR pre-grouping is at the same sort of stage that modelling the 1650s/60s was in about 50 years ago. You may be lucky enough to get an item or two that fits your period/area but after that you are down to generic modelling, repaints into spurious liveries, kit and scratchbuilding.

 

Remember the days when, if you modelled the ECML, you had the Hornby Dublo A4 and N2, Mk1s and not a lot else? 

 

What is quite correct is that you can run a J11 from the 1900s to the 1960s but you can't run an A4 any earlier than the 1930s, so pre-grouping locos have 3 potential markets, pre & post grouping plus nationalisation (and maybe preservation), which is one more than grouping stuff and two more than BR designs.

 

But we are a long, long way away from the day when any pre-grouping layout can be run purely with RTR locos and stock, apart from perhaps a SECR r branch line.

 

That is one of the main reasons why I model pre-grouping. I like making things but there is little point in slaving over a kit or a scratchbuild when you can buy a RTR model. So modelling pre-grouping GCR, I get to build my kits and sratchbuilds without getting too much of that sinking feeling when they bring something out. The D11 and O4, by the way, are not really very accurate for pre-grouping. One is a model "as preserved" and the other is a bit of a hybrid with some later features and the wrong tender. The J11, on the other hand, is just lovely! 

[Gordon Connell]

RTR pre-grouping is at the same sort of stage that modelling the 1650s/60s was in about 50 years ago. You may be lucky enough to get an item or two that fits your period/area but after that you are down to generic modelling, repaints into spurious liveries, kit and scratchbuilding.

 

 

 

Ah, extreme pre-grouping modelling!

 

Gordon

[t-b-g]

Ah, extreme pre-grouping modelling!

 

Gordon

 

Well spotted that man. New glasses required! Or new typing skills! I won't edit the typo just for devilment.

 

Tony

[garethashenden]

Yes, Cambrian is one mfr. that definitely comes to mind. Metcalfe is another company that has stopped selling direct to the US, but they don't claim it's insurance related.

 

And yes, it does apply to buying RTR locos, but one doesn't need to purchase additional items to go with it, as has been mentioned (wheels, motors, lettering, couplers, etc..), and the larger shops over there will more likely carry them, but not the kits one might need.

 

One definite advantage being over here, is that it is highly unlikely anyone seeing my efforts will know that my rolling stock might not be era correct, or that any colors I mix up will not be spot on correct

 

Jim F

When I was still in the US I had very good luck getting Metcalfe kits off ebay. Choose one of the stores, not a person selling things they no longer need. Postage is about a week and shouldn't be too expensive.

[dube]

Many of the rtr steam loco's are pre grouping designs most of us can build wagons what we need are more coaches like the secr birdcage which are pre grouping lasting through to BR, mostly for suburban work which there's still a lack off, so if they can back date some of the loco's like Bachmann NRM 9J etc, together with some new coaches I think many people would run pre grouping I know I'll be running an SECR C class with the birdcage coaches on my BR 1955 layout simply because it looks so good.

 

Talking of the SDJR there's been a 4F Jinty and 7F not pre grouping but all in bogus liveries should of all been plain black, unless your running a preserved loco

[Jol Wilkinson]

Many of the rtr steam loco's are pre grouping designs most of us can build wagons what we need are more coaches like the secr birdcage which are pre grouping lasting through to BR, mostly for suburban work which there's still a lack off, so if they can back date some of the loco's like Bachmann NRM J9 etc, together with some new coaches I think many people would run pre grouping I know I'll be running an SECR C class with the birdcage coaches on my BR 1955 layout simply because it looks so good.

 

Talking of the SDJR there's been a 4F Jinty and 7F not pre grouping but all in bogus liveries should of all been plain black, unless your running a preserved loco

What you want is is pre-grouping RTR carriages. What you need, if they don't materialise from Bachmann and the likes, is to acquire the simple skills to make your own from the wide range of pre-group kits available (although the SECR may not be that well supported).

 

Apologies if that seems pedantic or harsh, but remember that many of the kit manufacturers of these pre-group kits started up because they wanted to model a particular railway/era/location and there was nothing suitable available. They learned how to design photo etch artwork, make casting patterns, etc. to get what they wanted. We are fortunate that these items are available and learning how to assemble them isn't too great a challenge. Some liveries can be difficult, the LNWR being a good example, but some are quite easy, the SECR probably being one of them.

[dube]

We need the carriages forget kit building too hard for most and the liveries ! Surely if the big manufactures can produce loco's in pre grouping liveries and if there something to run with them this era might take off

[Jol Wilkinson]

We need the carriages forget kit building too hard for most and the liveries ! Surely if the big manufactures can produce loco's in pre grouping liveries and if there something to run with them this era might take off

I can't agree that kit building is too hard, it is just that most people don't make the effort to try because they are looking for the easy option. It is easier to spend your time posting your wishlist on RMweb than sitting at the bench and making something, but a lot less rewarding.

 

Are the RTR manufacturers interested in making the pre 1923 era take off? I doubt it, they will be more focussed on producing those items that require the least research, lowest production cost and generate the biggest profit, which is what it is all about for them. With the increase in workers wages in China, anything that requires extra time to manufacture it will be of less interest, so more complex liveries may be out. Locos and stock that lasted well into BR days and preservation may stand a chance of being produced, but whatever they choose will only be a small selection of what the pre-grouping railways ran.

[JimF51]

Sorry, but I have to agree with PB. Except for the 1st couple of years in the hobby, in the 70's, working in US HO, just about all the rest of my model rail hobby time has been in US N scale. When I 1st got interested in UK model rail, about 10 years ago, I just automatically gravitated to N gauge. Life interfered, and I have been away from the hobby from early '09 till a few months ago. In that time, I have now found working in N to be much more difficult. Eyesight is the biggest issue, but I also find fiddling with the smaller bits now more aggravating than before. I have looked at O, but cost and space required have that option on hold, for now. So OO it is.

 

So, yes, LNYRModeller, kit building can be hard, and difficult, for many. Don't judge others by your own abilities.

 

Yes, I'll build kits, not because I 'have' to, to feel I am a real rail modeller, but because I like doing so. That's my choice, much as PB is making his. We do not need people telling us what we "need'.

 

And I think the major manufacturers will do more pre-grouping, over time. Bachmann has now announced SECR birdcage stock in N (Graham Farish) to go with their N Class release, which I doubt would have happened, if they thought pre-grouping locos and stock was not worth the effort, as N is a much smaller segment of the hobby that OO.

 

Jim F

 

Oh, and FWIW, when I made inquiries about having a SECR loco built for me, I was told by 2 different builders that the Wainwright SECR loco livery is one of the most difficult to do

[Talltim]

The UK pre grouping modeller is better served than their US equivalent. There are pretty much no kits for locos, because the US market went for RTR brass. However a lot of this tends to be of 60-80s vintage and so needs a better motor, and possibly chassis, the wheels and rods are often pretty overscale. Even now they aren't cheap, prices start at about £125.

Freight rolling stock is far better served, there are a fair amount of resin kits around. However much passenger stock tends to be a case of modifying quite old and unavailable generic kits to suit your prototype.