GNRI BUT railcars

[colmflanagan]

Greetings all,

 

As if I hadn't enough to do, I am wondering about maybe modelling (in due course, as they say...) some of the GNR/UTA/NIR BUT railcars with a view eventually of doing a 1958-69 "Enterprise" set, which was, I think, a mixture of single and double ended power cars and some trailers (buffet, brake 1st?) I rather fancy it in mixed colours (blue/cream and green)

 

I know some of you have models of these which mostly emanated from 33lima.. has anyone else had a go?   Any info/pics of the models would be helpful. I would most likely use different power bogies as they need to run on code 75 track as well as Code 100. 

 

Colm

[kirley]

Looking forward to this Colm as I want to follow your project as a learning aide to having a go myself.  33lima is the only one I've come across who had undertook the BUT's and made public his endeavours.  It would be interesting to see if there are others?

[David Jackson]

I would have thought that the Hornby (ex Lima) GWR Railcar bogies would have been ideal for powering BUT railcars since the prototypes came from the same stable, and the bogies would be similar, if not the same.

Wheel standards on the Hornby version would be fine enough for running on code 75 track.

You might even be able to use the underframe as well.

[Hunslet 102]

Colm-there are some pics of my build of a 3 car NIR BUT set on my layout thread in the layout topics area under Belfast Great Victoria Street station and Adelaide lookalike.I will try to retrace my steps of what donors I used and also the make-up of the 6 car Enterprise set.Sounds like a good project.

[John M]

I would have thought that the Hornby (ex Lima) GWR Railcar bogies would have been ideal for powering BUT railcars since the prototypes came from the same stable, and the bogies would be similar, if not the same.

Wheel standards on the Hornby version would be fine enough for running on code 75 track.

You might even be able to use the underframe as well.

Although the final drive arrangements are similar the GWR and Irish railcar bogies were quite different. The GWR cars had plate frame bogies while the AEC & BUT cars had 10' coach type bogies generally similar to the LMS & early BR MK1s.

 

To make life even more complicated the BUT bogies were noticeably different to those used under the earlier GNR & CIE AEC cars, with Metalastic rather than conventional leaf springing.

 

If you can accept the compromise of a shorter wheelbase Lima/Hornby/Bachmann DMU bogies with the final drives gearbox from a Lima GWR railcar would pass at a pinch

[David Jackson]

My thanks to John M for pointing out the errors in my thinking. I have now done a bit of digging on the subject, and discovered that the underframe details of the Hornby/Lima model appear to be more akin to the AEC railcars, rather than the BUTs. On top of that, on the model, the underframe detail is part of the bodyshell moulding, and not the underframe moulding as you would expect. Even if it was correct for a BUT, it would make a very expensive option to have to cut up a bodyshell.

The second thing I discovered, is that the GWR railcar's transmission drove two axles on each bogie whereas the BUTs, and the AECs for that matter, only drove the inner axle on each bogie. This would mean that one could use any bogie wheelbase for a model, as only one final drive gearbox from a Hornby/Lima railcar would be required for each bogie. It might even be possible to use both the final drives from one GWR bogie to complete one BUT, after separating them. 

[33lima]

I always thought the Tri-ang Hornby 'Thompson Mk1s' might have made a decent basic for BUT bodyshells, what with the square-cornered windows, angular, bowed ends and separate, thin, easily-hacked sides.

 

The two BUT sets I made for Steve Rafferty 'back in the day' used Tri-ang Hornby Mk2as and Lima Mk1s which IIIRC were what Steve had available. 'Thompsons' would probably have been better than either but that was before eBay.

 

The AEC set was plasticard scratchbuilt on MTK aluminium roofs as was the AEC set built for Leslie (and I'd guess his BUT set, which I'd completely forgotten about...how about posting a pic Leslie?). Hunslet's sets are excellent.

[merlinxlili]

Very good Colm!

 

I am sure that you will be able to fabricate models of AEC/BUT railcars without too much difficulty. However I attach a photograph of some of the old MTK castings for the same railcars which Alistair Rolfe of No Nonsense Kits cast, without the whole railcar kit being available. Now that these kits have passed over to Phoenix Precision Paints, it might be worthwhile asking them if they have any of Rolf's AEC ends left over, or could cast a few more. Maybe others in this group would be interested?

[kirley]

 

 

 I attach a photograph of some of the old MTK castings for the same railcars which Alistair Rolfe of No Nonsense Kits cast, without the whole railcar kit being available. Now that these kits have passed over to Phoenix Precision Paints, it might be worthwhile asking them if they have any of Rolf's AEC ends left over, or could cast a few more. Maybe others in this group would be interested?GNRI railcar (2) comp.jpg

 

Can you say how accurate these parts are, it's just I tried to build a MTK A Class & C Class and found both to be totally out of scale?

[hidden-agenda]

Nice idea but as Kirley has said MTK (mental torture kits) were notorious for their irish stuff being not 4mm scale. Im building the kit of the ex Brel demonstrator railbus that now lives in Downpatrick and boy its been a nightmare. No two castings are alike and the roof is way over length but getting there slowly.

[John M]

I bought a couple of sets of these castings for to complete a Worsley Works AEC railcar set.

 

The main issues are:

 

1. The bogie sidesframes are designed around a 9'6" rather than the correct 10' wheelbase bogies.

2. The end castings are based on a CIE push pull driving trailer conversion rather than the original railcars. The driving trailers had additional components including typical roof mounted EMD headlamps, skirt/cowcatcher.

3. The castings are not quite symmetrical in roof profile.

 

In the end I found it easier to build the railcars from the Worsley Works parts in conjunction with a balsa roof, rather than try and match the cast ends with the Worsley Works etched sides.

 

The lower panels of the Worsley Works cab ends were etched as a series of 'fingers", making it basically a matter of forming the end around a balsa former and filling the gaps with solder or body filler and sanding to shape.

 

The greatest lesson learned was to wait until I had the bogie sideframes before ordering the bogies.

[kirley]

There is a strong hint that Worsley Works will have completed the preparation on the 700 & 900 Series BUT Railcars etches and should be available in the not to distant future. In anticipation can anyone give me the wheel size on the BUT's?

[Glover]

Great to hear that Worsley are on the BUT case.

According to a drawing I have by B. Heaven, wheel diameter is 3 foot 2 inches; this for the 900 series cars but I would assume the 700s were the same.

Colm Flanagan quotes the same diameter for the AEC cars.

So, 12mm should do the trick.

 

Cheers,

 

Glover

[kirley]

At last Allen Doherty has come through, etches for the BUT Series 700 and 900 Railcars arrived today. I haven't studied them in detail as yet but I do notice he has done the engine skirts as open frame work as I suggested leaving the modeller to cover them with 'netting' wire or leave them open.  Hopefully I can get started in the Autumn  providing I can get my current projects out of the way.

 

[ben racey]

Hi Kirley

 

These look good, might well get a set myself.... What are you planning to use for powering it? 10ft wheelbase iirc?

 

Richard

[kirley]

Hi Kirley

 

These look good, might well get a set myself.... What are you planning to use for powering it? 10ft wheelbase iirc?

 

Richard

 

Black Beetles 10' wb & 12 mm wheels.  I've used these on other Railcars and found they give good service.

[ben racey]

Good stuff! Might very well have a go! I was thinking bullant, but I'm sure a beetle will also be a suitable power unit.

 

Richard

[Glover]

Kirley,

 

Can you check/confirm this for me please?

The cab ends appear to be transposed; the 700 ends (the double ended cars) seem to be attached to the 900s etch.

Panic?!

 

Regards,

 

Glover

[kirley]

Kirley,

 

Can you check/confirm this for me please?

The cab ends appear to be transposed; the 700 ends (the double ended cars) seem to be attached to the 900s etch.

Panic?!

 

Regards,

 

Glover

 

Steady in the Ranks, The ends etches are separate and in the photo I have placed the 900 ends adjacent to the 700 body etch and vice versa.

 

Just testing.....

[Glover]

Thanks Kirley,

 

I can cancel my trip to Specsavers!

 

Cheers,

 

Glover

[colmflanagan]

These will certainly fill a gap in our "inventory" of Irish diesel railcars. Well done Kieran for keeping on at Allen until they finally arrived -having kicked this one off,  I had moved on to other projects (28, 1,4 etc), as most of you will be aware!  But a 6 car BUT "Enterprise" in Oxford blue and cream would look great.  Or even one of those multi coloured ones from about 1960/61....My won memories of BUt cars were of the later NIR livery and late 60's CIE.

 

 

Colm

[kirley]

I am currently building some BUT Railcars the 700 & 900 Series and am looking for information on how these Railcars were used by the various Railway Companies.

 

 

I know they were initially used by the GNR on the Enterprise Service. 

1.       What would be the makeup of an ‘Enterprise’ train and how many Power Cars were used?

2.       Were both the 700 & 900 (full cab or half cab as they are sometimes referred too) ever used in the same train formation?

3.       What formation did CIE use after they received the BUT’s?

4.       Similarly how did the UTA structure BUT Trains?

5.        Finally how did NIR utilise these Railcars on their Services?

 

I was looking in Jonathan Allen’s excellent book on the NIR and he helpfully lists Trailers used by the BUT’s and because of their unusual corridor connection (what was the thinking behind that idea?) I take it coaches so adapted could only be linked up to BUT Railcars.

 

Jonathan lists the following trailers that the NIR inherited and could only be used on BUT’s;

Catering vehicles -three B6, B8 & B9

Brake First Corridor -two D5 & F16

Brake Standard Open -four 2 L12’s & 2 L14’s

Composite Corridor -three C2 & 2 F16’s

Standard Open –three 2 K15’s & K23.

 

In particular I would like to know for model train operations how many Power Cars were used in any train formation. Hope someone out there can help.

[Glover]

Kirley,

I suspect the answers to your questions will have to be assembled from various sources but the following might help.

Both pieces of information are from the old Irish Railfans News ( which I think is now archived on the RPSI web site) and refer to to the later years of BUT operations, on CIE and UTA/NIR.

 

On May 24 1966, the CIE 09.00 Westland Row - Rosslare BUT set was involved in a level crossing accident.

The make up was: C904n/C24n/C712n/C714n/Luggage Van 2738.

C24n was a GNR brake standard, withdrawn in July 1969.

 

January 10 1970, Ireland played rugby against South Africa ( a very controversial match) at Lansdowne Road.

NIR operated an All-In special (on board meals included) using what may have been their last operational BUT set.

The formation was: 135,126,595,552,123,592 and 125.

I don't have a "translation" from GNR numbers to NIR but I know that 552 was a buffet car which had previously, in the November 1969 issue, been reported as out of use but obviously rose again!

 

Another note I have is from the April 1967 issue which stated that " BUT railcar 124 is likely to be the last to be painted blue & cream".

That would be the NIR variation on the classic GNR livery and I assume the previous livery was UTA Brunswick green.

 

Hope this is of some use.

 

Cheers,

 

Glover

[colmflanagan]

When the 700s came, they were used in a six car Enterprise - 700/700 / 1ST/BRAKE TRAILER/BUFFET/700/700, and while I've no absolute photographic proof I expect the later rake of 6 would have a 900 at either end in place of a 700.   This gave a high power/weight ratio for fast running.

  

I can recall being on a Derry road train in 1964 and there was a 900 at one end (i spent the journey looking out!) I think a 700 was at the front.

 

Build a double ender and you have an instant train!

 

Colm

[kirley]

The make up was: C904n/C24n/C712n/C714n/Luggage Van 2738.

C24n was a GNR brake standard, withdrawn in July 1969.

 

 

The formation was: 135,126,595,552,123,592 and 125.

 

 

Thanks Glover that is very helpful, so the CIE train was a 900, BSO, 700, 700 & Luggage Van, three power cars in this line up.

Then the NIR one had 900,700,BSO,Buffet Car, 700, BSO & 700, four power cars used.