AC Electric loco's in N Gauge

[scruff]

I was reading another thread and this issue keeps cropping up. Do AC electric loco's sell? not according to Farish. So this leaves N gauge modellers with only the class 86 that Dapol introduced to modern standards all on its own.

So, would we buy the current 87/90/91 from Farish? well, I know that I wouldn't. Much as I'd like to, the difference in quality from modern releases means I'm not happy about spending my hard earned cash on an inferior product.

I know Dapol have said the class 86 was a slow seller but there is nothing to run with it electric loco wise, that matches it in quality, features and detail. Maybe if other electrics became available then sales would pick up.

I know that I would buy retooled class 87/90 and 91 (providing retooled mk4 coaches happened) and also any new tooling models of the class 81- 85 and class 92. Just not all at once though!

This seems to be a case of the chicken and the egg.. which came first??

After all European modellers seem to do fine with electric loco's but they have a few manufacturers who produce catenary as well, so does this help matters?

Cheers

Mark

[Pete 75C]

Maybe I'm not too fussy but I don't think the Farish 87 is too bad. My local model shop is selling their last remaining Virgin liveried "Winston Churchill"s for £49.99. Couldn't resist. Even if the detail is not up to modern standards, the price was certainly a sweetener. I've just bought a EWS liveried Dapol 86 and a dummy Freightliner grey 86 and they really are delightful. Modelling AC in N is an absolute hornet's nest. Dapol's masts are sweet but you'll always get those that say masts without wires look daft. The price of continental (eg Viessmann) catenary has always put me off. I genuinely think a lot of people can't be bothered to go the extra mile with catenary in this small scale and consequently sales of anything with a pantograph are likely to be low. For example, you can run a Farish 37 or 47 anywhere but a Dapol 86 might look a bit daft out of its natural habitat... I certainly agree that if other AC electrics were available to the very latest tooling standards, sales might pick up but I do wonder if anyone's willing to take a gamble?

Me? I like the small scale overheads for one reason only. You just don't see them on other layouts that often.

[Carl. H.]

I doubt Dapol (or farish) would take the risk of producing further AC locos when you consider the tooling costs is somewhere in the high tens of thousands. They picked the right loco to do, its' carried numerous liveries, the longest lived AC loco, most common AC loco, its' pulled almost everything and operates over a considerable area, (east and west coast mainlines, north London lines, great eastern mainline to Ipswich and Norwich). But still wasn't enough even with its complementary catenary system. Even kit manufacturer's have had slows sales of electrics, TPM's 87 took over 10 years to sell its batch. In comparison its first batch of class 60 kits sold out within months if not weeks.

A retooled 91 is highly unlikely, as you said it'll need the Mk.4's and DVT's retooled too. I read somewhere the cost of tooling a wagon is around £40,000! Coaches and DVT, who knows? Maybe more than the 91 in total.

 

In my wildest dreams I would like to see all the current N gauge Ac locos completely retooled, all have their faults but can't see it ever happening.

 

One interesting fact about the farish 87, the body is underscale, but the chassis is spot on and a sweet runner. And the wheelbase for the 86 is the same as an 87. Maybe that's something for farish to ponder?

 

Carl

[Pete 75C]

Carl, I didn't know the Farish 87's body was underscale but to my untrained eye, I'd never have noticed! I agree that a full AC lineup to modern standards would be great but so far, that makes 3 of us, so it's not going to happen. I'll remain content to run my few ACs under the wireless wires inbetween all the diesels... best I can hope for.

[ThaneofFife]

i think Dapol ought to at least look at other liveries....

 

strangely farish have removed their 87s and 90 from the website about a month ago. i say strange because we are due to see the 87 in two new liveries.87002 br blue and 87005 in intercity ( swallow or executive was never confirmed nor did farish know when i asked last year).

[jpendle]

With the WCML and North Western Electrification going ahead it leaves just the Midland Main line and some secondary routes without wires or third rail. In a couple of years anyone wanting to model contemporary mainline operations will have to go electric. Even if you just do freight diesels half the time they run under the wires. I think it's just a matter of time before the manufacturers have to bite the bullet again.

 

For OHLE we have the single posts from Dapol and the brass etches from (can't remember the name). Perhaps some enterprising 3D Cad guy could produce a line of OHLE through Shapeways.

 

John P

[ThaneofFife]

excellent thinking by john. very true.

i dont have any issue with wireless masts in n gauge. Dapol are due to release some new masts and headspans but ive yet to see any photos of samples in n or 00.

 

i think the next modern n gauge electric will come from farish in the form of the class 85 with dcc chassis and lights.

[scruff]

If the wheelbase is the same... what is to stop Dapol doing with the 86/87 what they did with the 26/27??

Surely it would be a cheap route to a new loco for them with reduced tooling costs?

 

Cheers

Mark

[ThaneofFife]

id would be up for a Dapol class 87 for sure. with only the model requiring a body (or possibly just the 87 cabs?) side frames and maybe high speed pan youd think theyd be eager to milk the tooling for all its worth.

 

i wonder if n gauge overhead electrics are less or more popular than 00 gauge or about the same and gauge has nowt to do with it??

 

we have decent mk1s mk3s mk2s and mk2 aircons on the way so plenty of scope for full length wcml expresses with suitable locos.

[Karhedron]

With the WCML and North Western Electrification going ahead it leaves just the Midland Main line and some secondary routes without wires or third rail. In a couple of years anyone wanting to model contemporary mainline operations will have to go electric. Even if you just do freight diesels half the time they run under the wires. I think it's just a matter of time before the manufacturers have to bite the bullet again.

Is it the manufacturers who need to bite the bullet or the modellers? There is no point their making stuff if it does not sell.

 

I have said before on other threads, I am not convinced there is an army of potential OHEL N gauge modellers out there just waiting for a critical mass of stock. We actually have about 90% of the locos and stock we need to represent the intercity trains since privatisation. 86, 87, 90, 91, Mk2, 3 and 4 coaches with both flavours of DVT.

 

Ok some of it is fairly dated but if there was a decent demand for electrics, surely we would be seeing people making do or detailing what is out there. I can think of only a handful of N gauge OHEL layouts such as Kinlet Wharf. Not everyone requires all their models to the same high standard out of the box. Up until recently, I happily ran an old Farish Western on my layout. Now I admit I was happy to replace it with the Dapol version but the point is I did not let the lack of a modern specced Western hold me back from modelling the WR in the 60s.

[Edwin_m]

With the WCML and North Western Electrification going ahead it leaves just the Midland Main line and some secondary routes without wires or third rail. In a couple of years anyone wanting to model contemporary mainline operations will have to go electric. Even if you just do freight diesels half the time they run under the wires. I think it's just a matter of time before the manufacturers have to bite the bullet again.

 

For OHLE we have the single posts from Dapol and the brass etches from (can't remember the name). Perhaps some enterprising 3D Cad guy could produce a line of OHLE through Shapeways.

 

John P

This is true, but the contemporary railway needs multiple units much more than it needs locomotives.  The only one available RTR is the Farish 350, which doesn't overlap in time or location with any electric locos available in N except the Freightliner 86s and semi-preserved one-offs.  Perhaps components from the 150 can be used to produce some of the 317-322 series, or even an Electrostar? 

[Carl. H.]

Carl, I didn't know the Farish 87's body was underscale but to my untrained eye, I'd never have noticed! I agree that a full AC lineup to modern standards would be great but so far, that makes 3 of us, so it's not going to happen. I'll remain content to run my few ACs under the wireless wires inbetween all the diesels... best I can hope for.

 

the bodyside side detail still stands up well today and I must admit I only noticed the difference when it was placed next to my Dad's TPM kit built model. The TPM one looked large in comparison. Out came the calipers.

 

Carl

[Mike at C&M]

Mention is made of Dapol placing a Class 87 body upon their Class 86 chassis.

Following our limited edition 86 in BR Blue, I asked Dave Jones for a rough figure for tooling up a Class 87 body with precisely that thought in mind.

The tooling alone put this project well out of reach, I will not reveal the figure given to me, but we are talking into 5 figures for a body tooling alone, and that was before purchasing any stock.

 

The project was dead in the water before it even started.

[Carl. H.]

If the wheelbase is the same... what is to stop Dapol doing with the 86/87 what they did with the 26/27??

Surely it would be a cheap route to a new loco for them with reduced tooling costs?

 

Cheers

Mark

 

and do a 90 too. They must have had that in mind. Edit: Scrub this see post 13

 

Carl

[Carl. H.]

id would be up for a Dapol class 87 for sure. with only the model requiring a body (or possibly just the 87 cabs?) side frames and maybe high speed pan youd think theyd be eager to milk the tooling for all its worth.

 

i wonder if n gauge overhead electrics are less or more popular than 00 gauge or about the same and gauge has nowt to do with it??

 

we have decent mk1s mk3s mk2s and mk2 aircons on the way so plenty of scope for full length wcml expresses with suitable locos.

 

It depends on whether Dapol have designed the tooling to have an insert to put on 87 cabs (its a very expensive thing to do on a tool). I'd say popularity of AC locos proportionally is the same between OO and N. The Bachmann 85 hasn't been a huge seller either.

 

Carl

 

[Carl. H.]

Is it the manufacturers who need to bite the bullet or the modellers? There is no point their making stuff if it does not sell.

 

I have said before on other threads, I am not convinced there is an army of potential OHEL N gauge modellers out there just waiting for a critical mass of stock. We actually have about 90% of the locos and stock we need to represent the intercity trains since privatisation. 86, 87, 90, 91, Mk2, 3 and 4 coaches with both flavours of DVT.

 

Ok some of it is fairly dated but if there was a decent demand for electrics, surely we would be seeing people making do or detailing what is out there. I can think of only a handful of N gauge OHEL layouts such as Kinlet Wharf. Not everyone requires all their models to the same high standard out of the box. Up until recently, I happily ran an old Farish Western on my layout. Now I admit I was happy to replace it with the Dapol version but the point is I did not let the lack of a modern specced Western hold me back from modelling the WR in the 60s.

 That's quite true. There's also the benefit of 3D too if you want to go all out for spot  86, 87 and 90 bodies. And the Dapol 86 chassis is available as a spare.

 

Carl

 

[Carl. H.]

i think Dapol ought to at least look at other liveries....

 

strangely farish have removed their 87s and 90 from the website about a month ago. i say strange because we are due to see the 87 in two new liveries.87002 br blue and 87005 in intercity ( swallow or executive was never confirmed nor did farish know when i asked last year).

 

To be fair Dapol have looked and produced them. RES, EWS, two versions of freightliner, BR blue, NSE, Railfreight triple grey, inter city swallow, virgin and probably more.

 

Carl

[frobisher]

If the wheelbase is the same... what is to stop Dapol doing with the 86/87 what they did with the 26/27??

Surely it would be a cheap route to a new loco for them with reduced tooling costs?

It would mostly save on just the chassis development costs which aren't the biggest chunk of the tooling costs. The 86 CAD could form the basis of that for the 87 but there's greater commonality between the 26/27 there than between the 86/87. The former might have been achieved purely using slides in the tooling to swap the ends out I'm not 100% sure you could do that with the latter.

[frobisher]

The Bachmann 85 hasn't been a huge seller either.

To be fair, one of the initial liveries wasn't a great seller, but the other two initial liveries have been rerun with new numbers in the last catalogue which indicates their initial runs sold out at wholesale.

[jpendle]

Is it the manufacturers who need to bite the bullet or the modellers? There is no point their making stuff if it does not sell.I have said before on other threads, I am not convinced there is an army of potential OHEL N gauge modellers out there.

 

I agree, if there were as many of us modeling West coast electrics as there are modeling GWR branch lines then this would probably not be an issue.

 

I was thinking more along the lines that as more and more rolling stock seen on our railways becomes electric, there ought to be more demand for corresponding models.

 

John P

[jonathan452]

Now that Bachmann have announced the Class 90 in OO the 'shrink ray' may come along in the not to distant future.

 

One can only but hope.

[scruff]

I think the shrink ray is broken!

 

No N gauge 40 or 85 this year.. obviously Bachmann have decided AC electrics now sell in OO but not in N.. Maybe that is a step closer!

 

Cheers

Mark

[westie7]

Has anyone tried a Farish 87 on a Dapol chassis yet, before I go and dig out a few boxes?

[branchie]

Thought they might have treated us to a cheeky 85!

 

An well, maybe next year

[ThaneofFife]

Mention is made of Dapol placing a Class 87 body upon their Class 86 chassis.

Following our limited edition 86 in BR Blue, I asked Dave Jones for a rough figure for tooling up a Class 87 body with precisely that thought in mind.

The tooling alone put this project well out of reach, I will not reveal the figure given to me, but we are talking into 5 figures for a body tooling alone, and that was before purchasing any stock.

 

The project was dead in the water before it even started.

interesting. does that only go to highlight what a financial let down the 86 was/is/might be (delete as req) because thats quite a statement to say a project just for the body tooling was dead in the water?