AC Electric loco's in N Gauge

[ThaneofFife]

Has anyone tried a Farish 87 on a Dapol chassis yet, before I go and dig out a few boxes?

i think one chap here looked at that but the body would not go on and in the end he just lengthened the bogie wheelbases andcdriveshafts by 1mm for a better scale look. shame cosbit would have allowed some lighting.

[ThaneofFife]

Now that Bachmann have announced the Class 90 in OO the 'shrink ray' may come along in the not to distant future.

 

One can only but hope.

well they have removed their old class 90 from the farish part of the website......

[branchie]

I still think it's possible to get a nice model from a Farish 87 ....

 

[ThaneofFife]

i bet next year following the announcement of a new 90 in 00 gauge we will see the farish 90 released in some similar liveries afterall its only an artwork tweak unless they go off and retool it for dcc and lights and add on a better panto.

[87023Velocity]

Hi,

 

With regards to the Farish class 87, you can add a few bits to try and make them look ok, the Blue 87's that Branchie posted above look good to me. I was a bit reluctant at first to buy a Farish 87 for Dallam when comparing to the Dapol 86. However at £44 I thought worth a try to see what could be done. So far fitted a Dapol High Speed Pan and repositioned the bogie centres as they where too far apart, removed the moulded jumpers and fitted detailing parts see here http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/77518-dallam-sidings-wcml-warrington-2001-n-gauge/page-4

 

I now have 2 87's both in Virgin livery to run on Dallam for the push pull services and once weathered they should hopefully look ok next to the Dapol 86's. I will at somepoint add a 3rd push pull rake with Mk2's,Mk3 RFM and DVT this will probably have a Dapol 86 with it though as per prototype.

 

Cheers

 

Simon

 

 

[Crepello]

The 87 isn't shown in the new Farish catalogue. Make of that what you will.............

[grahame]

... ... or the class 90 or the class 91. Hmmm.

[njee20]

Yep, all gone from the Farish site too.

[m0rris]

I also noticed that the Pendolino and 92 disappeared off the Dapol site... I think the great shame about AC electrics in N gauge is that we nearly have all we need to get some decent modern day layouts going. However, the lack of decent high profile express locos/units is the killer. If you want to model the East Coast you have to do battle with the rubbish looking Farish 91, if you want to do the West Coast there is no way to get a Pendolino other than scratchbuilding. If someone made a Pendo, I'd drop my plans and model the WCML... That is a big if though.

[Pete 75C]

There are layouts out there set "under the wires" but I think the problem is that they don't get a wide audience. My latest tinkering in N is a ficticious piece of WCML but I'm not a finescale chappie and I don't much care about "that unit would never have been seen on that line alongside that loco in that livery". I also run "multi-era" at the same time. I fully appreciate that's enough to have the purists dismissing whatever I build as no more than a toy. I'm fine with that. I do it for my enjoyment, no-one else's. That, I think, is the problem. I can't think of too many exhibition layouts set under the wires that follow absolute prototype practice. Maybe two or three? GW branch lines in OO, however, are ten-a-penny. Having first dabbled with N in the days of crude Poole-built chassis, I'm actually pretty pleased and delighted with what is available now. I have a couple of Dapol 86s, a Farish 87 and there's plenty more overhead traction out there if I want it. No doubt I'll aquire a 90 before long. I read a lot about how this is "rubbish" and that is "rubbish". No offence, m0rris, but you're on record above saying the Farish 91 is "rubbish-looking". In your opinion - fine, and I agree, if it were released today, it would be better by far. I totally admire those who have spent a little time and effort improving details and repainting to end up with something that cannot be bought off the shelf. The 91 is a case in point. A little minor surgery and it can be made to look way better than it does straight from the box. Sometimes, I just think a lot of us expect everything served on a plate. Maybe we should take a step back and be grateful for what we have, compared with say, ten years ago?

[m0rris]

Entirely fair points and I was exagerrating a little with the class 91... Only the other day I was eyeing one up in my LMS, a couple of pretty simple mods (new lights/front grill) and sorting out the front valance would turn it into a very presentable model. The problem is though, that for AC electrics to sell in reasonable quantities wed need a better balance of passable models that need work and top draw stuff! N gauge has definitely come a long way in 10 years, which is the reason why I dropped down a scale when I realised what could be done with both the RTR models out there and 3D printing. The guys battling the old Poole Farish models certainly have my respect.

 

One problem with reworking models in N is that it is harder to get them looking "right", my 00 gauge class 56 rework is finally emerging from the works and theres a few rough edhes here and there that I can get away with in 00 but in N gauge they would be far too obvious.

[ThaneofFife]

The 87 isn't shown in the new Farish catalogue. Make of that what you will.............

Ok. Well i did say in post #5 theyd gone from the website but now theyve been dropped from the new catalogue too?

 

From an optimists pov maybe with the class 90 being planned in 00 farish are looking to shrink it to create a new better N gauge 90 as well as a new n gauge 87.

 

For the less optimistic pov ill leave that to others.im sure we'll be familiar with the names of those commentators when they emerge

[Crepello]

I really can't understand the 'lack of sales' for electric locos, especially in N. You don't really need to go the whole hog with full OHLE; on my Eastbury Loops layout, I've just 4 of the Dapol catenary posts, which give a hint of 'work in progress'; as I run 50s/60s/70s steam and diesel too (though not at the same time), they don't look out of place; remember how long the WCML electrification took, with Duchesses and Jubilees working under the wires? In my view the blue Dapol 86 is a real cracker and deserves a place on many more layouts. Roll on a blue 87 I say!

[mikeharvey22]

David Love did say he was planning to redo his 3D printed Pendolino at sometime, now he's doing a degree in 3D design etc.. I could see this being a runner with printed vinyl sides over a metallic grey bodyshell.

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/61710-3d-printed-n-gauge-pendolino-and-on-track-plant/

[Roy L S]

I am sure I will be looked upon as one of those "familiar names" as Thane of Fife puts it, but if that is the case so be it.

 

The lack of sales of electrics in N is not really a huge surprise. The overall N market is only 20-30% the size of 00, and even although more viable in 00 for sure, some still struggle.

 

How many of the estimated (figures vary) say 15,000-20,000 British N Gauge modellers actually have models that include OHLE? How many would change to it if more products were available? I am suspecting (happy to be proven wrong if any one has hard facts) that the current numbers of "serious" OHLE modellers can probably in reality be measured in the low to mid 100s. Even were it to be 1000 it is hardly sufficient critical mass to support anything as adventurous as a Pendolino. RRP for 6 car set would be (say) £250 - £300 a time and is there really a market for 2000 to 3000 of them? I doubt it personally, not even a fraction of that and certainly reported poor sales of the Desiro seem to confirm that.

 

Coupled all of the above to Bachmann having said longer multi-car DMUs are not currently viable given increases in production costs sadly I think a RTR Pendolino in N is a non-starter. Maybe a 3D based kit is therefore the way to go.

 

The trouble is that even allowing for a low total base of OHLE modellers in N, locos and units tend to be specific to individual routes largely and this must drive down potential unit sales further.  

 

The Dapol 86 is a fine model, in terms of the quality of model it may have deserved to do better but the fact is it did not (Dave Jones on record as saying one of their slowest sellers) but even still I think that best chances of something new for OHLE in N must be the 90 given it's production in 00 and Bachmann's declared intention to produce models in both scales, that or the 85. If that happens, great, and indeed if 90 were to appear, thinking about the current WCML scene, how poorly off is the OHLE modeller actually anyway?

 

• Suburban services - Desiro - Available.
• First Scotrail Sleeper - 90 and Farish Mk3s - Available.
• Cross Country services - (A surprising number) - Farish Voyagers - Available.
• Freightliners and other freight - 90s, 66s, 67s, 70s, occasional 56 and very rarely DRS 37s - All available plus associated wagons etc.

 

Missing: -

 

• Pendolino (Kit potentially?) accepted this is pretty much essential.
• 321 - Becoming rarer and rarer - probably not essential.
• TPO Units - Class 325s (Is it just one a day each way to Shieldmuir now?) - probably not essential.

 

So, in truth assuming we do see a 90 sometime soon (in the meantime the old 87 and 90 are readily available second hand) surely all that really needs to be cracked for the WCML is the Pendolino?

 

Before anyone jumps on this and suggests otherwise, I am not seeking to talk down interest in OHLE in N, each to their own. I am (and always have) simply trying to present a realistic position. The Market is limited, but there are still options.

 

Roy

[ThaneofFife]

.......quite. Now.....

 

The virgin era is much better catered for than the blue/grey era. This is what many of the boomer kids vividly remember and would like to model. Not sure if the VT era is where many wcml modellers want to be given a choice.

[Roy L S]

Hi Thane of Five

 

What you say is quite possibly true, meaning realistically adding an 85 so who knows, it may happen.

 

We already have Mk1 and Mk 2 stock from Farish covering that Blue/Grey era in a general sense plus the relevant diesels - 24s, 25s (newly tooled shortly), 31 (new due Jan/Feb 2015), Class 37. 47 etc plus older non DCC Class 40 and 50.

 

Where it falls down is that I really cannot see any mainstream manufacturer going anywhere near a 304 EMU. Maybe that's another for the 3D print/kit avenue?

 

Roy

[frobisher]

How many of the estimated (figures vary) say 15,000-20,000 British N Gauge modellers actually have models that include OHLE? How many would change to it if more products were available? I am suspecting (happy to be proven wrong if any one has hard facts) that the current numbers of "serious" OHLE modellers can probably in reality be measured in the low to mid 100s. Even were it to be 1000 it is hardly sufficient critical mass to support anything as adventurous as a Pendolino. RRP for 6 car set would be (say) £250 - £300 a time and is there really a market for 2000 to 3000 of them? I doubt it personally, not even a fraction of that and certainly reported poor sales of the Desiro seem to confirm that.

You're conflating two different things here. The market for a train such as the Pendolino is not wholly contained within the "serious" OHLE modellers market segment, and sales of the Desiro are quite frankly no form of indicator. I'm not saying the market is necessarily huge, but there is a reason that Hornby have this in their 00 range and that's trainset appeal, which is something that "ordinary" EMUs don't have.

[Karhedron]

David Love did say he was planning to redo his 3D printed Pendolino at sometime, now he's doing a degree in 3D design etc.. I could see this being a runner with printed vinyl sides over a metallic grey bodyshell.

I agree, the work he did was amazing, especially consiering he was starting from scratch. Here is a shortcut to the part of the thread showing the finished Pendolino for those who do not want to read the whole thing from the begining.

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/61710-3d-printed-n-gauge-pendolino-and-on-track-plant/?p=901524

 

 

Where it falls down is that I really cannot see any mainstream manufacturer going anywhere near a 304 EMU. Maybe that's another for the 3D print/kit avenue?

Captain Electra does a 310 which is also suitable for the WCML and is probably more useful in some sense as it lasted longer in service.

 

The Dapol 86 is a fine model, in terms of the quality of model it may have deserved to do better but the fact is it did not (Dave Jones on record as saying one of their slowest sellers) but even still I think that best chances of something new for OHLE in N must be the 90 given it's production in 00 and Bachmann's declared intention to produce models in both scales, that or the 85.

Thinking about it, it is a shame that the 86 was not released in electric blue. If the 85 came out in electric blue then even better. The steam-diesel transition sceen is popular for obvious reasons in the variety of stock that can be run. But the steam-diesel-electric transition is even better. You can have electric blue locos hauling maroon Mk1s with steamers or green disels hauling services off the wires. A 4MT on some Farish Mk1 suburbans could cover the local workings.

 

My hunch is that the 86 would have sold better if the tooling had supported rail blue and electric blue as it would have brought in many more possibilities from when the railways were more diverse.

[jpendle]

Roy you missed out the 92 which I consider essential for contemporary workings.

 

I also think that its only a matter of time before everything we could possibly want, be it a 12 car Pendolino or a Furness Railway Tank is avaiable as a set of parts using a mixture of 3D printing technology and brass etches for details like grills or brake pipes etc.

 

I, for one, would use up to 3 Pendolinos. My layout is set in the North West, Bolton has been reached but not Wigan, so technically not the WCML but with wires going up from Manchester to Preston in  real life, I shall also be adding OHLE to my layout whether it gets to the WCML or not  .

 

John P

[woodenhead]

For a good stab at 2mm WCML type services in the classic blue era would take a bo-bo chassis capable of adjustment and some good 3d prints of 81-86 classes - the coaching stock is available and the OHLE modellable though the more challenging south of Manchester heavy duty OHLE would be more of a complex challenge.  Diesels are or have all been available.

 

Course you'd still need a 304 - can't get away from that.

[Revolution Mike]

I am sure I will be looked upon as one of those "familiar names" as Thane of Fife puts it, but if that is the case so be it.

 

How many of the estimated (figures vary) say 15,000-20,000 British N Gauge modellers actually have models that include OHLE? How many would change to it if more products were available? I am suspecting (happy to be proven wrong if any one has hard facts) that the current numbers of "serious" OHLE modellers can probably in reality be measured in the low to mid 100s. Even were it to be 1000 it is hardly sufficient critical mass to support anything as adventurous as a Pendolino. RRP for 6 car set would be (say) £250 - £300 a time and is there really a market for 2000 to 3000 of them? I doubt it personally, not even a fraction of that and certainly reported poor sales of the Desiro seem to confirm that.

 

Missing: -

 

• Pendolino (Kit potentially?) accepted this is pretty much essential.
• 321 - Becoming rarer and rarer - probably not essential.
• TPO Units - Class 325s (Is it just one a day each way to Shieldmuir now?) - probably not essential.

 

The problem is that I fear you are mis-reading the market and the problem.

 

The point about the Pendolino is for right or wrong it is a very stand out train (clever marketing and design).  It appeals to kids and the toy train market as well as the "serious" modeller so the market for the Pendolino is not the same as for say an 86/87/90 etc.

 

The Desiro is pretty much useless (in WCML terms) without a Pendolino (unless you were producing an SWT based layout and of course Bachmann haven't done a 450) - the Pendolino is the signature train for that era. Ben quite often writes about substitute trains (eg one could use a Voyager or Prentendolino set as stand ins) but IMHO that doesn't really help that much.

 

For earlier than the Pendolino era the WCML (and ECML) modeller is actually quite well served apart from the missing EMUs.  I agree with you that 3D printing can help with that - there are various bits and pieces for converting 150s into 321s etc (though centre cars are a bit of an issue without lots of cutting and shutting). Similarly the 313 (and 325) is now available from N Train (even if I don't like the WSF material it is printed in!).

 

I've been building up stock for a WCML layout for the past few years - I could probably do a reasonable representation of the blue grey period (particularly for the northern half of the WCML) even through to early Virgin ie when still loco hauled.  The problem (for me) is I'm more interested in past few years which is difficult without a Pendolino.

 

For all that there may not be a huge number of OHLE modellers in N, the same can be said about many "specialist" sectors of the market. As soon as we start to sub-divide the generic eras you actually start to realise how few modellers are interested in particular sectors. Having said which it all becomes a bit chicken and egg (and let's not forget increasing parts of the network will be OHLE over the next few years). There are also some inspirational OHLE N gauge layouts eg the likes of Law Jn, Kings Park etc which may help inspire a few more modellers.

 

Cheers, Mike

[Revolution Ben]

Hi all,

 

I think the manufacturers have done their bit - if N gauge modellers want more OHLE models it's time to step up and start buying what there is abd creating more aspirational layouts, that in turn will inspire others to take the plunge.

 

Yes, there isn't a Pendolino available RTR but as I have posted a few days ago on the N Gauge Forum - where a similar discussion is under way - why not use the concept of "placeholder" models - and a bit of imagination - to deputise.  For the Pendolino you could use a Pretendolino rake or even a pair of Voyagers or Super Voyagers coupled together.  Or there's the 3D printed kit option.

 

There are cheap, but detailed catenary posts from Dapol.  For earlier eras there are the Apollo grey/blue Desiros and VIrgin Mk3s, 86s, 87s and correct DVTs.  Pretty much all freight is covered - Freightliner 66, 86, 70; EWS 60, 66, 92*, DRS 66 (wth 68 promised) and many suitable wagons. 

 

You could even model a "secondary" line (as we do with our club layout Horseley Fields) where the lack of a Pendolino is even less important and we run suburban and express 350s.  And here we use London Midland 153s, 170s and Centro 150s or 158s as 323 placeholders.

 

cheers

 

Ben A.

 

EDIT:  Ha!  Mike beat me to my own punch!!  But I still think it's unreasonable refuse to buy OHLE models until *every* possible train you need is available RTR, while expecting manufacturers to commit funding themselves.

[Karhedron]

Don't forget Kinlet Wharf as another great N Gauge OHEL layout.

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/nicks_railways/5361905338/in/set-72157625838667934/

 

I believe that Bob of NTrains is working on a generic Mk3 bodyshell with assorted front ends and underframe details which would be very useful for covering a lot of bases from 1980 onwards. The 317/1s and 321s worked the southern end of the WCML although I don't know how much they overlapped with the Pendolinos.

 

Maybe someone needs to win the lottery and commission Dave Jones to make one.

[woodenhead]

The problem is that I fear you are mis-reading the market and the problem.

 

The point about the Pendolino is for right or wrong it is a very stand out train (clever marketing and design).  It appeals to kids and the toy train market as well as the "serious" modeller so the market for the Pendolino is not the same as for say an 86/87/90 etc.

 

Neither Graham Farish nor Dapol are a Hornby who will produce iconic trains to get the kids interest.

 

N gauge never has been the obvious introduction to the world of train modelling, look at the sets that both N gauge RTR produce none are aimed at a youth or child market.

 

The market is small and if Bachmann believe at the moment that the market wouldn't stand an 9-11 coach train in N because of the cost then I am inclined to believe them.