AC Electric loco's in N Gauge

[DJM Dave]

Don't forget Kinlet Wharf as another great N Gauge OHEL layout.https://www.flickr.com/photos/nicks_railways/5361905338/in/set-72157625838667934/

I believe that Bob of NTrains is working on a generic Mk3 bodyshell with assorted front ends and underframe details which would be very useful for covering a lot of bases from 1980 onwards. The 317/1s and 321s worked the southern end of the WCML although I don't know how much they overlapped with the Pendolinos.

Maybe someone needs to win the lottery and commission Dave Jones to make one.

Great idea Matt,

 

I reckon 1000 people putting in £250 each would do it, if anyone's interested?

[Revolution Mike]

Neither Graham Farish nor Dapol are a Hornby who will produce iconic trains to get the kids interest.

 

N gauge never has been the obvious introduction to the world of train modelling, look at the sets that both N gauge RTR produce none are aimed at a youth or child market.

 

The market is small and if Bachmann believe at the moment that the market wouldn't stand an 9-11 coach train in N because of the cost then I am inclined to believe them.

 

I agree with the history, but put perhaps that is part of the problem that N gauge has ie if we want the market to grow then perhaps there is a place for the Hornby style approach.

Not many people can run a 9 or 11 car Pendolino in OO but it would be possible in N, but why not again take the Hornby approach (or as Dapol have done with the HST) and produce a short set with additional cars?

 

I'm under no illusion that a Pendolino will appear RTR in N (sadly - I don't fancy trying to draw the nose in 3D), but I do think it is a bit of missed opportunity particularly after Dapol announced it as part of their magnificent 7.

 

Cheers, Mike

[woodenhead]

I think a lot has happened in the world of model railways since the magnificent 7 both the celluloid and Dapol incarnations!

[Roy L S]

Would there be a market for a lower detail and specification five car (say)  "Pendolino" targeted at the "junior" modeller as part of a specifically branded and marketed entry level set? I don't think you could ever say "no" because nobody has ever really targeted that potential market segment apart from Farish with the cheap "Gaffer" entry level steam sets, later replicated by Bachmann.

 

However, even if there were a market for the said 5 car set in that specific segment would the product still attract the more "serious" modeller, assuming limited detail, bodyshell compromises, lower spec mechanism, plastic "pan" moulded "down", no lights, no DCC socket? Given comments about the existing "legacy" Farish 87, 90 and 91 I am thinking probably not?

 

Roy

[jpendle]

Great idea Matt,

 

I reckon 1000 people putting in £250 each would do it, if anyone's interested?

I'm in, only 249,750 to go

Tell you what I'll buy 3, only 249,250 to go now.

 

Maybe the Pendolino would make a good candidate for a Kickstarter project.

 

And one more point.

 

For me the lack of a Pendolino is an emotional issue. I am modelling the North West today. THE iconic train is the Pendolino, everthing else is optional. If I were modelling mainline Big Four, then  Stanier Pacifics, or LNER A3's and A4's etc, would be essential. We all have an emotional need to model what we consider the iconic trains for our chosen region and era.

 

John P

[DJM Dave]

I'm in, only 249,750 to go

Tell you what I'll buy 3, only 249,250 to go now.

 

Maybe the Pendolino would make a good candidate for a Kickstarter project.

 

And one more point.

 

For me the lack of a Pendolino is an emotional issue. I am modelling the North West today. THE iconic train is the Pendolino, everthing else is optional. If I were modelling mainline Big Four, then  Stanier Pacifics, or LNER A3's and A4's etc, would be essential. We all have an emotional need to model what we consider the iconic trains for our chosen region and era.

 

John P

Hi John,

 

I'll gladly make one if the cash is forthcoming, that's for sure. No half rakes either!

 

If anyone's serious, please start a pendolino thread on my section to play fair with Farish.

Cheers

Dave

[jpendle]

Hi John,

 

I'll gladly make one if the cash is forthcoming, that's for sure. No half rakes either!

 

If anyone's serious, please start a pendolino thread on my section to play fair with Farish.

Cheers

Dave

Hi Dave,

 

I can't start new topics in your section. If you could kick it off then I'll add my tuppence worth.

 

John P

[Karhedron]

I agree with the history, but put perhaps that is part of the problem that N gauge has ie if we want the market to grow then perhaps there is a place for the Hornby style approach.

Not many people can run a 9 or 11 car Pendolino in OO but it would be possible in N, but why not again take the Hornby approach (or as Dapol have done with the HST) and produce a short set with additional cars?

The problem with the book set plus extra coaches route is that some people put off buying the core set if the matching coaches are not available at the same time. People then have to wait 2-3 years to complete their sets as the remaining coaches slowly come out. In a few cases, the shades of paint used do not match between batches.

 

The solution is to release all the vehicles at the outset but that raises the cost for both the manufacturer and the customer.

[DJM Dave]

Hi Dave,

 

I can't start new topics in your section. If you could kick it off then I'll add my tuppence worth.

 

John P

Hi John,

 

Started in the DJModels section

Cheers

Dave

[njee20]

 

 

However, even if there were a market for the said 5 car set in that specific segment would the product still attract the more "serious" modeller, assuming limited detail, bodyshell compromises, lower spec mechanism, plastic "pan" moulded "down", no lights, no DCC socket? Given comments about the existing "legacy" Farish 87, 90 and 91 I am thinking probably not?

 

My gut feel would be not - it's one thing to target a model at a 'junior' audience, but a lot of those compromises would likely exclude the more serious modeller, which isn't desirable.

[bmthtrains - David]

My 3D printed Pendolino was one of the first designs I attempted, as such it needs a complete overhaul as 2 years later my CAD skills are somewhat improved! I've commented on the DJM thread that I honestly can't see a market for 1000 of these. There size of the 'toy' or 'trainset' market in N is tiny compared to OO, Hornby makes a huge amount of money from selling in places like Tesco and Toys R Us - Farish has no presence here and would be foolish to aim for it - the models are too fragile and seemingly 'expensive' compared to their larger Hornby counterparts. Unfortunately the more serious N gauge modellers among us tend to wildly overestimate the size of the market, especially the upper-end of the hobby that you might see on here or the N Gauge Forum. To see what the rest of the N gauge buying public are up to, the Facebook group does have some eye-wateringly 'relaxed' approaches to modelling, and this is the bulk of the hobby. 

 

It is the same with the N Gauge Society - look at the annual model making competitions - 4 or 5 of the same names every year win ever trophy. The number of 'serious' N Gauge modern image modellers in the UK I would reckon to be somewhat significantly less than 100. 

 

We can bemoan the poor sales of electrics in N until the cows come home - but just because 'we' don't get why they don't sell when we happily buy them, doesn't mean another 900 people out there are just the same. 

 

There is a demand for the 390 out there for sure, just not enough to justify the 1/4 million pound investment. I've been asked many times to make an RTR set for different people, but I don't currently have the time to update the design, let alone set about building, painting and motorising them for customers. If Dave is canny though, he will see how many people are really interested (I will venture it will be no more than 40 names by the autumn), and then put the rather brilliant CAD files he is bound to have (and far superior to the ones I worked up from photographs), and make them available as 3D prints, or get them injection moulded in a small batch.

 

David

 

 

[Karhedron]

If Dave is canny though, he will see how many people are really interested (I will venture it will be no more than 40 names by the autumn), and then put the rather brilliant CAD files he is bound to have (and far superior to the ones I worked up from photographs), and make them available as 3D prints, or get them injection moulded in a small batch.

I suspect the small batch approach won't fly. For injection moulding, a large part of the R&D costs are in the tooling and that costs the same regardless of whether you produce 40 or 40,000. 1000 units is probably the smallest run that could spread the R&D costs and still produce an acceptable price-per-model for the finished output (and that is with Dave acknowledging that he is willing to take a hit on the initial run to recoup on later runs).

 

As for 3D printing, the technology is viable (as you yourself have demonstrated very well) but it does not yet give a quality comparable to modern RTR. Whether Dave would be willing to potentially dilute the DJM brand while it is still in its infancy by using 3D printing is a question only he can answer (although I have a hunch what that answer will be).

 

If the Kickstarter is not successful (and let's not write it off before it even starts), I suspect that your work is likely to remain the only N gauge Pendolino for the forseeable future. Perhaps an option is to polish the CADs up a bit in light of your more recent experience and team up with someone like Electra Railway Graphics to offer a low-effort kit. Whilst not what people are hoping for, 3D printing plus pre-cut vinyls would allow people to order whatever length of rake they can fit on their layout.

[PaulCheffus]

As for 3D printing, the technology is viable (as you yourself have demonstrated very well) but it does not yet give a quality comparable to modern RTR.

Hi

 

From what I have seen of 3D printing I would agree. I have bought one item that has been 3D printed and I wont be buying anymore until the quality improves dramatically.

 

I don't subscribe to the "It looks alright from normal viewing distance" view.

 

Cheers

 

Paul

[jpendle]

I agree with Karhedron. RTR is superior to 3D printing, but if RTR doesn't fly then I'll happily buy a 3D print especially if there are vinyls or transfers available plus maybe some etched brass detailing parts.

 

I'm one of the vocal minority on here who have expressed an interest in an N Gauge Pendolino.

 

For me the best outcome for a Kickstarter campaign would be to find that 1000 pledges have been attained and that 2 years from now I'm going to get my models.

 

BUT I also want to know if I'm deluding myself. If by the end of the year there are only 250 pledges then so be it. Those of use wanting a Pendolino will then know that they only reasonable way forward is probably going to be a 3D print 'kit'.

 

John P

[njee20]

If Dave is canny though, he will see how many people are really interested (I will venture it will be no more than 40 names by the autumn)

At risk of falling into the trap you've just mentioned, I think that's an overly pessimistic outlook. I think the market for a RTR 'headline' model like this is bigger than a lot of the other things we've seen produced - think Blue Pullman for a start.

 

Drawing comparisons to kit and scratch built efforts in the NGS is a hugely flawed comparison - and the people who have such a relaxed approach to modelling that you bemoan are potentially the exact ones who would buy a 390.

[ThaneofFife]

whose to say Bachmann sorry farish wont go down the pendolino route. theyre not slowing down with electric models so maybe we will see an n gauge pendo without the kickstarter.

 

i agree it will be surprising if the ks reaches 250 pledges by autumn but those pledging have firm belief there is enough pent up demand in one initial hit to get the 1000 pledges needed.

 

frsnkly i hope they achieve it cos thats one less model for Bachmann or farish to produce meaning i might selfishly get models from them that i actually do want

[acko22]

I think that the issue is that most n gauge modellers are currently how can I put it (of an older demographic), as has been said N gauge is not exactly child friendly this means it's more of an adult gauge that say OO.

 

Also looking out there most layouts are steam and post steam era as people are either looking at what they remember or want to imagine if that's the right word.

Although they have stopped doing them I am sure as time goes on and there is more of a demand in the market then they will reintroduce the AC range with better tooled and a bigger range, it' just a question of getting younger people into the N gauge scene and like myself wanting to model what WE (80s kids) remember!

[scruff]

After the latest catalogue, it seems Farish have pulled the plug on AC electric loco's completely...

 

Oh well.. maybe its a good sign... or is it?

 

Mark

[Les1952]

I'm just about to start modelling an AC electric line in N again.

 

However it will be 15KV 16 and two-thirds cycles, and 1:160.

 

Perhaps if the UK hadn't been half-hearted about modernising the railways and had electrified on a planned basis starting earlier, rather than over-egging the pudding for one big scheme then taking fright at the cost......

 

But we are where we are, and until the total N-gauge market is big enough for the AC proportion of it to be profitable I suspect the big boys will be reluctant to dip in a toe.  I can even  see more chance of Class 92 appearing in 1:160 than in 1:148.

 

Depressing, isn't it?

Les

[ThaneofFife]

im a bit less negative about it tbh.

the class 87 and 90 have vanished from the farish loco section of the website. my view is that we will soon see a retool of one of these models. my money following recent announcements is a new n gauge 90.

[Roy L S]

The 90 would be logical and in my humble opinion the best choice for an AC electric in N for all the reasons previously discussed.

 

It remains to be seen though whether Bachmann would risk further investment in this area based on the history of underperforming sales of previous N AC OHLE products. Maybe they will, who knows...

 

Roy

[Revolution Ben]

Hello all,

 

Of course, if the N Gauge Pendolino Project reaches its goal on Kickstarter that would send a strong message to the manufacturers that there is money to be made in OHLE models... and make a 90 all the more likely.

 

cheers

 

Ben A.

[Crepello]

Don't the prototypes share the same bogie? I remember the 90 was going to be an 87/2.

[scruff]

I wonder if they would get away with the 2 bodies and 1 chassis option like the Dapol 26/27.

 

Cheers

Mark

[ThaneofFife]

Don't the prototypes share the same bogie? I remember the 90 was going to be an 87/2.

kind of.well yes basically. when the 87s emerged they didnt have yaw dampers so the pedants that lurk might say you cant use a 90 bogie on an as built 87 but tbh in N gauge i reckon youd struggle to tell them apart.....