shibushe Posted July 22, 2014 Share Posted July 22, 2014 Would someone explain to me what a Juicer is, and what it does. Does it require extensive wiring. Any links that I can view. Thanks Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bgman Posted July 22, 2014 Share Posted July 22, 2014 Suggest looking at www.tamvalleydepot.com site it'll give you an explanation. Failing that just put Kermit in a food processor ! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cromptonnut Posted July 22, 2014 Share Posted July 22, 2014 A frog juicer requires three wires - one to each of your rails and one to the point frog. Connected from your layout to the juicer via three small screw terminals. When the point is changed, if the juicer detects that the frog polarity is the wrong way round (ie creates a short) then it (virtually instantly) changes polarity over so the train can continue. A "dual" juicer can control two point frog polarities separately, a "hex" can control six point frog polarities separately. I've used them in the past (now don't as the Minx Microdrive point controllers I am using have their own built-in frog polarity changer) and had no problem with them at all. Very straightforward to set up and use. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
kspoons Posted July 22, 2014 Share Posted July 22, 2014 have juicers for all point frog control and it has made at least stopped all those shutdowns because you have not changed a point correctly. easy to use and install. spoons Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium ColinK Posted July 22, 2014 RMweb Premium Share Posted July 22, 2014 I've several on my layout and find them to be excellent. What they do, is ensure that the electrical polarity of point frogs is correct, without the need for any switch eg microswitch connected to point motor. Hence they are more reliable and require less wiring. I've only a vague understanding of how they work - but they do work well. In brief, electrically isolate the point frog, connect the frog juicer to the track bus (two wires), connect one output from the juicer to the point frog. The juicers I have each control 6 points. Hope this helps. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miss Prism Posted July 22, 2014 Share Posted July 22, 2014 Six microswitches - £10.Hex frog juicer - £60. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Colin_McLeod Posted July 22, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 22, 2014 Getting the microswitches to work - Priceless! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold RFS Posted July 22, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 22, 2014 One port of a frog juicer will cost you £8, a Peco or Seep solenoid point motor £4-5. For the same money you can get a Tortoise slow-action point motor with two reliable, built-in switches - one to do the polarity and the other to do anything else takes your fancy. You get all the benefits of reliable (and quiet!) operation of your turnouts plus the added benefit of not constantly causing system short circuits. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
signalmaintainer Posted July 22, 2014 Share Posted July 22, 2014 Six microswitches - £10. Hex frog juicer - £60. It's the argument of value versus cost -- and Frog Juicers are a good value. Finicky micro switches and the fiddly means to mount and actuate them, not a good value. Just my experience. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vonzack Posted July 23, 2014 Share Posted July 23, 2014 Remember the Frog Juicer works by detecting a short on the layout and quickly switching the polarity before the command station detects it and shuts the system down. I've used a dual frog juicer for a crossover, where I wanted to pair the two frogs, so that when either is triggered they both switch together. It's been working faultlessly for a couple of years now. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold roundhouse Posted July 23, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 23, 2014 I got fed up with the SEEP solenoid polarity change failing and after trying the Peco twin microswitches with Peco solenoids that were to fiddly to keep adjusting, I decided to use Frog juicers on Banbury and Santa Barbara. Yes they are dearer than some options but so far they have worked extremely well at many shows. Frog Juicers only work with DCC. With a Hex Frog Juicer you can wire up 6 separate frogs. You need one wire from each frog to the juicer plus two wires from track power. A couple of points worth considering - the Frog Juicer needs ot work turnouts within the same power district. If you have block detection then each Frog Juicer needs to be within that block section so needs a bit more thought and possible the use of the twin juicers etc. I will be using them on Dobris when I get to wiring up the turnouts. EDITED - Hex Frog Juicer has 6 ports (not 8 as previously typed) Ian Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Oldddudders Posted July 23, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 23, 2014 I'm afraid that the argument about the relative costs of motors and microswitches only holds up if you are going to use a motor in the first place, or feel able to install the microswitches. The Frog Juicer will work with unpowered points, and, as others have said, is very easy to connect. I have plenty of Tortoise and Peco motors in use, but there are locations where a motor is not feasible, and then the Frog Juicer is the best way (virtually prat-proof, an important issue here) of avoiding shorts. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold RFS Posted July 23, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 23, 2014 With a Hex Frog Juicer you can wire up 8 separate frogs. It only has 6 ports ... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grovenor Posted July 23, 2014 Share Posted July 23, 2014 It only has 6 ports ... Hence can have 6 things to switch, but each switch can have more than one frog attached, just depends on the complexity of the layout, could be more than 8 in the right circumstances. Keith Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold roundhouse Posted July 23, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 23, 2014 It only has 6 ports ... Sorry my mistake Was thinking of a DAC 20!! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crosland Posted July 23, 2014 Share Posted July 23, 2014 I'm afraid that the argument about the relative costs of motors and microswitches only holds up if you are going to use a motor in the first place, or feel able to install the microswitches. Motor, or not, is totally irrelevant. It boils down to whether you will use "hand of god" to operate the points directly, or have some form of mechanical system (wire in tube, levers & cranks, etc...) to which you can couple the switches. Andrew Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Mallard60022 Posted July 23, 2014 RMweb Premium Share Posted July 23, 2014 Frog juicers (for DCC of course) for a lazy numpty with electrics like me, are a Godsend. P Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
shibushe Posted July 23, 2014 Author Share Posted July 23, 2014 Thanks Guys Very clear instructions. Look forward to getting one. Regards. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cromptonnut Posted July 23, 2014 Share Posted July 23, 2014 I bought mine from Digitrains in Lincolnshire. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold roundhouse Posted July 23, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 23, 2014 Just ordered a couple of dual juicers from Coastal DCC Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
signalmaintainer Posted July 23, 2014 Share Posted July 23, 2014 There was concern expressed last year on an N scale forum about whether the Frog Juicer reacts quickly enough to reverse polarity and thereby prevent the rail pitting that can occur from a short circuit. The circuit is essentially a one-shot flip-flop, with MOSFETs doing the heavy lifting. Reaction time is about 300 microseconds. Even with the 5 amps needed to drive the Juicer, that's nowhere near enough time for a short circuit to be detected by a DCC command Station or for any damage to the rail. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Suzie Posted July 24, 2014 Share Posted July 24, 2014 You can get a 4-way servo decoder with frog switching for up to eight frogs built in for less than the cost of a hex frog juicer. You really only need a frog juicer where you are changing points by hand and do not have room for a microswitch. It is not like the wiring is any easier - three wires to the juicer the same as three wires to the microswitch. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Oldddudders Posted July 24, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 24, 2014 Motor, or not, is totally irrelevant. It boils down to whether you will use "hand of god" to operate the points directly, or have some form of mechanical system (wire in tube, levers & cranks, etc...) to which you can couple the switches. Andrew Perhaps I should have said "remote control". I do not see the faff with wire-in-tube etc as being much less than digging holes in the baseboard to mount a motor. In my case I have a station throat built on bases that would not readily accept anything but hand operation. Elsewhere, as I said, Tortoises do the biz, and in the hidden sidings, Peco. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold roundhouse Posted July 24, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 24, 2014 You can get a 4-way servo decoder with frog switching for up to eight frogs built in for less than the cost of a hex frog juicer. You really only need a frog juicer where you are changing points by hand and do not have room for a microswitch. It is not like the wiring is any easier - three wires to the juicer the same as three wires to the microswitch. I must admit that I am considering going over to servos and that board would be ideal. Maybe I will give that a try on future modifications to the juice factory on Fort Myers. Ian Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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