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Experience with Peco Smartswitch


kirtleypete
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Frog Juicer is the specific name Tam Valley use for their product, they are simply polarity switches. Peco don’t do “frog juicers”. 

 

3 hours ago, jcredfer said:

Servos are mostly value for what you paid, as there are many cheap, "inferior", china made look-alikes of the better brands.

 

What do you get by paying more? For point control I mean, I get why you may want better quality in RC planes, although I’m not sure you can correlate place of origin with quality, they’ll virtually all be from China after all. 

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Frog juicers automatically switch the polarity in DCC systems. They are not simple change over switches.

 

I too have some Tam Valley frog juicers which I find very reliable. 

 

With a bit of planning it is possible to allocate more than one turnout to a juicer thus reducing the number of juicers required.

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59 minutes ago, Colin_McLeod said:

Frog juicers automatically switch the polarity in DCC systems. They are not simple change over switches.

 

I too have some Tam Valley frog juicers which I find very reliable. 

 

With a bit of planning it is possible to allocate more than one turnout to a juicer thus reducing the number of juicers required.

Hi Colin.

Don't use frog juices myself but as a matter of interest how do you manage that ?

Tony.

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1 hour ago, njee20 said:

Frog Juicer is the specific name Tam Valley use for their product, they are simply polarity switches. Peco don’t do “frog juicers”. 

 

What do you get by paying more? For point control I mean, I get why you may want better quality in RC planes, although I’m not sure you can correlate place of origin with quality, they’ll virtually all be from China after all. 

My point about better quality, vs price and reliability is a matter of choice, explained in my post.  

 

The point about cheaper Quote - there are many cheap, "inferior", china made look-alikes _ Unquote, was about "cheap look-alike fakes produced in china" and sold at prices which betray their manufacturer origin.  It is well known that there are some china products that are cheap attempts to give the impression that they are quality products from genuine quality makers [including those quality china produced products].  To be clear, the comment was about the "origin of the fakes" and not about the origin of the quality items the fakes are based on.

 

Regards

 

Julian

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But, aside from “it’s more expensive so it must be better”, what do you actually get for paying more? I genuinely don’t know. If that’s all it is that’s fine, people take reassurance from buying more expensive things, but don’t then correlate quality. 

 

The Tower SG90 is pretty ubiquitous. Peco sell them for £5 each or whatever it is. There are plenty of UK sources for ~£3, or you can buy direct from China for ~£1. Are you saying the direct from China ones are fake? What happens if you use them? Am I risking a fiery explosion every time I switch mine on?

 

Just saying they’re inferior isn’t helpful. Of course there are fake products originating from China, but that’s a broader issue, how can we identify fake servos, and what’s the risk of using them? 

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Fake SG90s are digital - the proper ones are analogue. If you need some of the features of an analogue servo (variable torque, low power consumption, or no 'stepping') then you are going to be stumped with a fake.

 

Fakes have poor gears. If you are expecting a SG92R with indestructible carbon fibre gears and you get a fake - don't expect the gears to be able to handle the torque. If you get a fake SG90 that is digital - don't be surprised that the extra torque breaks the gears.

 

Fakes have poor splines - don't expect the horns to be easy to fit on the splines.

 

The fakes are best avoided.

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8 hours ago, amdaley said:

Hi Colin.

Don't use frog juices myself but as a matter of interest how do you manage that ?

Tony.

 

Tony if you identify two (or more) frogs that will NEVER be used at the same time then they can both be connected to the same juicer.  

 

In the example below frogs A and B will never be used at the same time.

 

20190821_083711.jpg

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I tried some cheaper Servos bought on eBay. They seemed the exact make and code number as the Peco ones but they just did not work very well and I had to replace the four with Peco or ANE. Worth logging in to the manufacturers site for latest updated products in this range. "ANE"

https://www.anemodel.com/Home-E.html

Some very intresting stuff. About half of my system is ANE before Peco took it on, it was about 60% of the Peco prices at the time.

One of the problems is there is still a lot of the older versions about but usually at a cheaper price. If I bought some now I would make sure it is the latest versions even if it cost more.

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One of my Peco servos on my level crossing failed (excessive jittering). I mentioned it to the man on the Megapoints stand and he had what appeared to be an exact replacement type for sale, so I was able to do a like for like swap.

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4 hours ago, njee20 said:

But, aside from “it’s more expensive so it must be better”, what do you actually get for paying more? I genuinely don’t know. If that’s all it is that’s fine, people take reassurance from buying more expensive things, but don’t then correlate quality. 

 

The Tower SG90 is pretty ubiquitous. Peco sell them for £5 each or whatever it is. There are plenty of UK sources for ~£3, or you can buy direct from China for ~£1. Are you saying the direct from China ones are fake? What happens if you use them? Am I risking a fiery explosion every time I switch mine on?

 

Just saying they’re inferior isn’t helpful. Of course there are fake products originating from China, but that’s a broader issue, how can we identify fake servos, and what’s the risk of using them? 

Yes, indeed, the original Tower SG90, was a good quality servo, which at ~ £5 was particularly good value and was, therefore, a very popular buy.  That resulted in the market being pretty well soaked in cheaper, inferior, look-alikes, trying to climb on the back of Tower reputation.  Suzie has listed most of the problem areas of the various fake ones and I can add, poorly meshed gears which run unevenly [normally accompanied by resultant noise and jerky motion], gear teeth which break off and jam the rest of the gears and internal circuit failures, amongst them.  I watched a friend's 16ft span competiton model glider hurtle from 500ft and spear into the ground, from gears simply jambing because of a loose broken gear-tooth jambing the rest.  Over £1,000 worth reduced to bits in just a few seconds.  It was only very close inspection of the servo case that revealed that although all other markings were very close to identical, the "TM" mark was missing.  I have noticed slight case differences in other ones, too.

 

Most, good, trade outlets, on the High Street make sure they obtain the genuine article, as they have to deal with customers returning to complain.  [comversations can get quite heated, given the sums of money which are sometimes involved]  Once a genuine one is obtained it can be used to check that other purchases match.  Having said all that, I should go back to saying that many of these faults are less serious problems on items likely to be operated by cheaper servos and most [faulty ones] will only require simple replacement and little other damage.  The financial factor is quite a strong one and could well be a deciding one, too. Particularly so, as the lesser strain on servos for rail use involves far less stress than most aeroplane models, which get banged about quite a lot.  I wouldn't like my comments to be taken as "banging a drum", quite the opposite, more an observation on caution when purchasing, what might look like a genuine product. 

 

Regards

 

Julian

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56 minutes ago, Barry Ten said:

One of my Peco servos on my level crossing failed (excessive jittering). I mentioned it to the man on the Megapoints stand and he had what appeared to be an exact replacement type for sale, so I was able to do a like for like swap.

 

Hi Barry,

I see you mentioned jittering with your servo, would that be at one of the end points, or even both?

 

Regards

 

Julian

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40 minutes ago, jcredfer said:

 

Hi Barry,

I see you mentioned jittering with your servo, would that be at one of the end points, or even both?

 

Regards

 

Julian

 

When the gates were in the normal closed position, one of the gates was prone to jittering and sometimes swinging open on its own. I was told (if I remember rightly) that there's a track inside the servo which functions like a pick-up rail and some dirt or arcing on this can cause the behaviour I had. I tried everything else, including changing the DC supply.

 

As a side issue, I've experienced some jitters when trains are running on DC and experience momentary pickup issues. There's no connection between the layout wiring and the servo wiring, but presumably the pickup issue generates a high frequency signal which causes some interference. It's a rare enough issue that I've not been strongly motivated to chase down the cause.

 

We also had a chat about the servos I use for signals, driven by Megapoints's own board. Although mine have been fine, they do tend to twitch a bit on being powered up, and I was told this would be avoided if I used digital rather than analog servos.

 

 

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21 minutes ago, Barry Ten said:

 

When the gates were in the normal closed position, one of the gates was prone to jittering and sometimes swinging open on its own. I was told (if I remember rightly) that there's a track inside the servo which functions like a pick-up rail and some dirt or arcing on this can cause the behaviour I had. I tried everything else, including changing the DC supply.

 

As a side issue, I've experienced some jitters when trains are running on DC and experience momentary pickup issues. There's no connection between the layout wiring and the servo wiring, but presumably the pickup issue generates a high frequency signal which causes some interference. It's a rare enough issue that I've not been strongly motivated to chase down the cause.

 

We also had a chat about the servos I use for signals, driven by Megapoints's own board. Although mine have been fine, they do tend to twitch a bit on being powered up, and I was told this would be avoided if I used digital rather than analog servos.

 

 

 

That certainly indicates a position sensor playing up, as already advised. 

 

I asked because the jitters are often mentioned by people as a nuisance at the end points and they claim faulty servos, that type of jitter can also cause overheating and eventual servo failure.  In truth the Peco advice for setting up the servo arms is quite likely to make that happen, which is a little awkward.  They advise placing the connecting/push-rod to the outer hole on the servo arm, ie the longest possible length of lever and most control rod movement for least arc of rotation.  Given points, or signals require very small movements, it would be better to use the inner hole on the servo arm, giving most rotation for the desired distance moved by the control rods and greatest mechanical advantage to the servo motor. 

 

Even better would be a simple linear movement reduction lever between the servo and accessory, together with a 180deg throw of the servo arm, so as to be in-line with the thrust/tension at each end of the throw, ensuring nil jitter.  One of the spare servo arms in the kits can be used, screwed to pivot on the baseboard, with the inner arm hole used to drive the points etc and the connecting rod from the servo to one of the outer lever arm arm holes, such that the desired movement is produced at the accessory.  If desired a right angle servo arm can be used in the same fashion to give a bell crank effect, too.  For crossing gates a 180deg servo arm swing should be possible connected at the other end to suitably spaced holes on the arms connected to the gates.

NB. I have a picture, if it makes it easier.

 

Regards

 

Julian

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I used the outer hole for the Peco servos on the crossing gates (probably because I was just following their instructions) but the inner hole on all my subsequent signal installations.

 

Apologies if I have posted this image before (on this thread) but it may be helpful to anyone looking for a simple way to add demountable servo-driven signals. My cheap and cheerful mounts are made from 3 pieces of thick plastikard (although foam board would work as well, I think) with the servos glued in place with small dabs of cyano. I've a feeling I could remove them if I have to but in the meantime the cyano provides a strong enough bond. The signal operating wires are routed down through a small hole in the top plate, and then engage with the inner hole in the servo lever. The rest of the lever has been snipped back to give clearance once the signal is pushed down into its slot in the layout.

 

I've done a number of these units, including two that were based around failed Dapol units.

 

blogentry-6720-0-12957100-1510783172.jpg.67651e70be105e11ef4e262c84eb1911.jpg

 

The crossing gates are unfortunately a swine to de-install and re-install so they'll stay as they are, and I'll hope I don't see another servo malfunction. I hesitate to say it was a fault of the unit as it had been in place for a few years without incident and I may have strained it in some way during subsequent alterations to the crossing to improve the realism of the gates.

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In case it's of interest, here's a shot of the home-made servo mount for a crossing gate:

 

It's super-crude, and as awkward to install as it is to photograph, due to lack of clearance between the underneath

of the baseboard and the other layout 18 inches below!

 

As should be clear, it's a simple bracket of plastikard, with the servo mounted using one of the plates in the

Peco kit. The wire driving the crossing gate comes down through a hole (complicated by there being another

2 inches of foam between the baseboard and the track) and then gets a crank put in it to correspond to

the radius of the outer hole in the servo arm. The servo then just provides rotary motion. I'm sure there's

a better way to derive the motion but this is just what occurred to me as I played around with the parts, not

having had any prior experience with servos.

 

910168545_crossingservo.jpg.3d58dfadecdf376646275fc0eaf03b28.jpg

 

And here's a video of the gates in operation.

 

 

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18 hours ago, Colin_McLeod said:

Frog juicers automatically switch the polarity in DCC systems. They are not simple change over switches.

 

I too have some Tam Valley frog juicers which I find very reliable. 

 

With a bit of planning it is possible to allocate more than one turnout to a juicer thus reducing the number of juicers required.

 

Frog juicers are only actually needed for turnouts requiring powered frogs, but that you don't set (or can't set) to allow for the direction the train is going. Those include spring switches or diamond crossings not direction controlled by a nearby turnout setting. They detect the momentary short circuit of the powered frog gap being "closed" by a metal wheel rolling over the gapped rail joint and switch the frog power as needed.

 

Compared to using the frog powering contacts provided on most stall motor products, Juicers are way more expensive. And they don't use any less wires. And if you have a habit of trying to run your trains through wrongly set trailing points, They will help you derail them completely ;) .

 

Tim

 

 

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19 minutes ago, Colin_McLeod said:

Operator problem is not a weakness of the equipment. Don't run against wrongly set turnouts.

 

Also juicers can be used with peco live frog points operated by hand, i.e. with no point motor. 

 

If you can hand operate a live frog point by hand, you can also hand throw a panel toggle switch to flip the frog power.  I grew up in post-war austerity Britain. So my experience is that you get more layout if you only buy what you actually need. 

 

An interesting irony is that the prevailing trend to use inexpensive servos to save money over stall motors, would appear from the postings earlier to be truly successful only if you use the higher price quality servos.

 

Tim

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16 minutes ago, Hitchin Junction said:

 

An interesting irony is that the prevailing trend to use inexpensive servos to save money over stall motors, would appear from the postings earlier to be truly successful only if you use the higher price quality servos.

 

Tim

Ive been using the same very cheap servo's on a few layouts (scrapped and rebuilt) for about 6 years, including exhibition use, and I've only had 1 failure, whereas my modelling friend had to replace 4 of the supposed better quality (and more expensive ones) a few hours into an exhibition, and has since replaced all his servos with cheapo's and has had no more failures!

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   1 hour ago,  Hitchin Junction said: 

 

An interesting irony is that the prevailing trend to use inexpensive servos to save money over stall motors, would appear from the postings earlier to be truly successful only if you use the higher price quality servos.

 

Tim

1 hour ago, JiLo said:

Ive been using the same very cheap servo's on a few layouts (scrapped and rebuilt) for about 6 years, including exhibition use, and I've only had 1 failure, whereas my modelling friend had to replace 4 of the supposed better quality (and more expensive ones) a few hours into an exhibition, and has since replaced all his servos with cheapo's and has had no more failures!

 

Tim,

The inference of previous posts was not that higher priced servos must be used to be truly successful, but "IN GENERAL" more reliable.  JiLo has illustrated that more expensive items don't always fit the "reliable" bill.  If anyone wants reliable servos, I mentioned the local reputable r/c model aeroplane shops, to get good recommendations for those, as they get the failed ones back in the face.

 

Of course lots of the "really cheap" fake copies will work, they are copies of successful item, after all.  However, the fail rate is proportionately higher, too and for good, obvious reasons.  In contrast to JiLo, the moderately [ie. not really cheapo] priced servos my model aeroplane friends and myself have used have not had any failures, other than high speed flying errors into items which resulted in external applied damage [hit anything hard enough - and it will break!!].  I suppose the big message is to get advice if you are placing a servo [or any other appliance] in a place where you don't want to be replacing it and replace any other ones, having made sure they are accessible to do so.  Perhaps a little more care where reliability may be an issue.

 

Regards

 

Julian

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Whilst I've not had problems with the servos, a couple of things I've found are very important - make sure that the power supply is strong enough, and make sure the mountings are solid.

 

Originally I used aluminum channel to secure the servo, by force fit.  Overtime these lost their grip so I resorted to laser cut mounts that can be found on eBay, which are cheap and easy to fit, and if need be, easy to swap out for another

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  • 7 months later...
On 21/08/2019 at 17:38, Colin_McLeod said:

 

Tony if you identify two (or more) frogs that will NEVER be used at the same time then they can both be connected to the same juicer.  

 

In the example below frogs A and B will never be used at the same time.

 

20190821_083711.jpg

Thanks for the diagram. I have never heard of someone doing this. It's exactly what I need. I have a small off scene storage yard representing a coal mine exactly as you have drawn. It is an afterthought, so I could increase my storage in one of my off scene main storage yards and has restricted space to install point motors. I use DCC but I wanted to simply use fingers to change the points to get things running quickly at this location. I normally use stall point motors (I use both Tortoise and Cobalt) and after years of using both I prefer the Tortoise ones because they are quieter. Unfortunately they only have a switch contact rating of 1A, and these will fail on most DCC systems if you run into the turnout causing a short at the frog. To get around this problem I wire a 10W light globe in series with the frog.The limits the voltage to around 0.5A. Otherwise stall motors are reliable and simple if you follow instructions. This thread confirms my long held view servo motors do not make reliable low cost point motors. However I do use servo motors to drive my semaphore signals. It's not cheap overall, but they are the best solution I know of at the moment.

 

Terry Flynn.

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Glad this was helpful to you Terry.

Don't forget you will need another juicer for the turnout in the extreme left of the diagram.

 

I have a ten road fiddle yard and using this juicer sharing concept the nine frogs involved are powered by only four juicers.

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  • 1 month later...

Wished i had seen this thread before i bought the Peco stuff. Smartswitch is ok but the smartfrog operates in a different galaxy as far as i can make out. Tried everything but it seems to be trying to switch polarity as the loco goes over the v. DC.

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