Modular Control - DCC Setup and Walkabouts

[Kenton]

 

Just needs someone to say right were doing it this way or that way and it will all settle down which seems to have worked so far.

If there are systems in the uk now that have been proven and the owner is keen on the uk set up then surely thats the most logical set up to go with.

 

Where others lead we will follow.

Steve

I do not think so. What is happening here is a group of specialist DCC imposing a standard on those that already have a different standard or none at all.

 

I keep referring to LenzNet (it is a catch-all example that could apply to any particular DCC system) it is just that some seem to be advocating it here. But the simple all inclusive idea Andy has proposed (and some of us have signed up for) has now become far more than just provide DCC compatibility in the form of a two wire bus and is rapidly becoming provide a full LenzNet system with several plug in ports.

 

Forget the single track plain modules that we now seem to be being encouraged to make because I suspect most will want to build A LAYOUT - something useful that can be used at home 99% of the time. An active module that contributes something interesting. It is that layout and its interconnection as a module which we should be considering. The (quite correct) standard of DCC compatibility in the form of 2 wires is attainable at virtually no cost and no commitment to DCC (of any particular flavour). So those with DC preference or Hornby Select DCC can participate.

 

Forcing all modules to use LenzNet, and to provide for those that do, is just the wrong way of doing things. It is no wonder that this debate over control systems has the potential of putting some off the whole modular system idea. Why do they have to buy LenzNet kit and RJ12 leads when they have no use for them at home on their XXxx connected Hornby DC system?

[Glorious NSE]

What is happening here is a group of specialist DCC imposing a standard on those that already have a different standard or none at all.

 

Is it? What's this new standard then? Who is it that's imposed it? Did you say something Andy?

 

All i've seen so far is discussion...

[Talltim]

The point is, if you go for a wired DCC system, you need somewhere 'near' where you are operating to plug your handset in. On your home layout the control box is likely to be near the layout, and if there's only one of you operating you can plug your handset directly into it with no problem. When you have the control box 30 feet down the layout it gets a bit hard to do. Similarly if you want to plug two or more handsets in at the same time, you can;t because there is only one socket.

So, whatever wired system is used, you need the equivalent of multiway extension leads to allow for sockets conveniently placed around the modular setup. Now this is the hard bit, because of the different standards from different DCC manufacturers. For any one meet, you all need to be using the same standard (but not always the same standard for different meets).

The sockets don't need to be actually mounted on the modules (and they don't actually connect directly to the module, they run back to the control box) so could be on a bit of ply that clamps on the facia or legs. (as per the bottom pic in this post)

But what you will need, for any meet, is enough of the same standard of sockets to run the modular setup. This either relies on module builders providing their own, or someone (possibly a small group) providing them all.

How you decide which DCC manufacturer standard and manage to get enough matching sockets for a meet, I don't know.

[Steve-e]

 

It is no wonder that this debate over control systems has the potential of putting some off the whole modular system idea.

I agree with this as the topic is a bit deep however what people need to remember is anyone who wants to participate just needs to provide the banana sockets and bus wire.

Also it goes back to the people evolving as they visit meets my time line is likely to be 1 single line rectangle board with banana plugs with it been one line this will be compatible with my Dynamis system and also whatever system is used at the meet.... The next stage would be subject to enjoying the first meet be to gain knowledge of how things work from those at the first meet I may then build a junction board so may introduce something dcc which maybe compatible with any system in use at the meet.

 

Thats how I see any beginners who are unsure of things progressing.

 

There hopefully will be others futher down the timeline who have the all singing all dancing dcc system which will power the set up and are prepared to share so we can gain knowledge and maybe in future invest in a better system ourselves.

 

 

Steve

[cromptonnut]

How you decide which DCC manufacturer standard and manage to get enough matching sockets for a meet, I don't know.

 

How many different plugins are there out there?

 

The Lenz system offers RJ12/14 and 5 pin DIN.

 

There's the NCE type.

 

Not sure about others?  Strange how the NMRA standards didn't settle on one connection type.

 

If each person building a set of modules incorporated their preferred within the module (where a panel is required), and purchased one of the "other type" plus one long connecting cable for their preferred type then the cost is minimum to those that need panels, and then hopefully there will be enough people with the right cables, controllers and patch panels at each meeting.

 

One patch panel for the other type and one long cable for my type would cost about £20.

[ian]

<flack jacket and tin hat on>

 

Given Andy's 'inclusive and simple' remit the answer is pretty simple.

 

The organiser sources the following (from wherever he can beg/steal/borrow):

• DCC command station
• Computer Interface
• Computer running JMRI (JMRI is free)
• WIreless router
• Extra boosters/cut outs if required
  (Canny organisers will also have spare kit in case of equipment failure during the day)

Each participant who wants to run a train sources:

• Wireless gizmo running the appropriate throttle app (again the app is usually free)
• Power lead to recharge during coffee breaks (other refreshments may be available)

Optionally if there are places where a wired throttle may be an advatage (marshalling yard, station pilot, etc..) then the organiser or module provider will need to source:

• Wired throttle(s) to suit base station
• Panel(s) for it/them to plug into
• Lead(s) to connect to base station.

The organiser can base his choice of base station on what is available to him (personally, from other attendees, scrounged from a club, etc.).

 

The individual probably has the necessary kit for their part - if not, scrouge/borrow...

 

Where is the cost or problem?

[cromptonnut]

scrounged from a club, etc.

 

That's a good point I hadn't thought of - even if we personally do not have the required "kit" surely many potential attendees who are involved in a local model club must have access, either to club stock or a friend within the club, someone who has something they can borrow for a weekend?

 

On a side note, I wonder how many "potential modular people" have said anything about this to their own club members who may consider building some larger, more complex modules between them as a club project - or would consider inviting people who are building modules in their area to have space (via local co-ordinators, who will naturally emerge in time) to take space with a modular layout at their annual show?

[GRC]

I'd like the draw the topic to a conclusion as I started it but not sure were all done yet. My summary to date :-)

 

Based on the discussion for the people who don't want to invest in a DCC controller setup that is fine, they will need to own or borrow some sort of handset that can be used as a Wireless throttle during the event to drive trains anywhere on the layout :-). Wireless is likely to become the core standard providing the people setting up the show have the required equipment on the day. The Organisers will need to publish along with the venue and catering information things like the WIFI throttle software etc.

 

Where module's have things that need to operate like points, crossings, signals etc then they all need to run off a local supply initially and be switchable at the module via the standard DC or DCC methods. This should be provided by the module owner and will need to be totally isolated from the track supply.

 

There is a potential to have a network of Wired connections to join together modules but this is not mandatory. Where this is adopted, probably by the local groups initially it will likely be based on consenus and around one of the core standards (LocoNet or XpressNet) and most likely just between the members with station or yard areas anyway with more than a couple of sidings.

[Kenton]

 

(do Bachmann and Hornby offer hand-held controllers away from their main systems?   )

Bachmann certainly does - I have one.

 

The more and more I think about this - the more convinced I am that Wireless is the operational answer to any modular group setup - the cost per individual is minimal (IF the control box/PC/router is supplied by organiser/someone with deep pockets/already has one) The cost to the "driver" is a cheap s/h mobile and an App. The cost to a active module is zero (presuming they are already DCC)

 

There are simply too many variables to do it wired and keep it open and simple for all concerned.

[Doc Robin]

I've had a good look in my cupboards of electronic junk, collected over the years, and I've turned up an old Dell laptop running Vista (ugh) and with such a poor battery it needs to be plugged in all the time. I've an equally ancient WiFi router, now redundant, and a three year old android tablet. I downloaded JMRI and a throttle app, so just add a Sprog 3 for £65 and I'm sorted. 

 

I run an NCE Power Cab on my roundy roundy eight by four beginners layout, so I will probably put in a NCE socket plate on the module for home use, but having paid for some 4mm sockets and patch leads, I'll be able to disconnect this and plug into the Sprog or whatever other system the meetings come up with. As Kenton says, Wifi looks a good bet!

[FelixM]

The Throttle article in the DCC Wiki is quite interesting: http://www.dccwiki.com/Wireless_Throttles

Also of interest is the site "Choosing a DCC System" http://www.dccwiki.com/Choosing_a_DCC_System

And last but not least there is a useful comparison table: http://www.dccwiki.com/DCC_Systems_comparison

 

Kind regards

Felix

[cromptonnut]

Is there someone knowledgeable about setting up a laptop, router, JMRI and enginedriver app setup that can do an idiot (ie me) proof guide because I cannot seem to figure out what I'm doing wrong.

 

I have an old Netgear N150 modem/router which I'm trying to use.  Is that where my problems begin?

[AlanRogers]

Is there someone knowledgeable about setting up a laptop, router, JMRI and enginedriver app setup that can do an idiot (ie me) proof guide because I cannot seem to figure out what I'm doing wrong?

Cromptonnut, I'll stick my hand up for this. I've helped two friends achieve the set-up that you're proposing, including increased security on the router. However, as an attempt at a checklist, this is what I'd do:

1. Factory reset the router to wipe all existing settings. This usually entails pushing a cocktail stick into a small hole on the back for ten seconds, until all the lights go out and it power cycles.
2. Plug a computer in to the router using an ethernet cable. Make sure that the computer is not using a static IP for networking as you'll need to pick up whatever the router is now serving.
3. Log into the router using the factory default username and password and immediately change the password to one you'll remember. Write it down! Save the configuration!
4. Log into the router using the new credentials just set and configure the wireless access to have a meaningful SSID, WPA2-PSK encryption and a pass phrase that's easy to remember.
5. Write it down! Save the configuration! Yes, an entire step all of its own, just in case you missed doing it in 3 above.
6. Make sure that you know the router address. It will most likely be 192.168.X.Y where X is either 0 or 1 and Y is either 1 or 254. Write it down!
7. Remove the cable and test the wireless connection. If you can still log into the router, you're still connected to the same network. Save the configuration!
8. Using your iPhoney or Android device, make sure that you can connect to the wireless network. You should still be able to get to the router login page by IP address.
9. Install JMRI and configure to connect to your chosen DCC system. JMRI interfaces with almost every available system, including MERG.
10. Configure and enable the JMRI Web Server. Your wireless devices should now see a JMRI server in EngineDriver or WiiThrottle, which they can connect to.

The key point here is to attack this elephant one bite at a time, checking that what you're doing is working before progressing to the next stage. If you leap right in with the end goal in sight but not the intermediate steps, you're all but guaranteed to get yourself into a right pickle. Having done it all without intermediate testing, and finding it now doesn't work, you've got to tear it back down to ascertain at which point it wasn't working to start with. Therefore, it's very much less stressful to test at each stage.

 

Hopefully that list will help you work out what you haven't yet done. If not, PM me and we'll work out a mutually convenient date/time for me to solve your problem in return for a cuppa and a chocolate biscuit.

[cromptonnut]

Quite a list Alan.  I'm away at present but will give it a whirl next week when I am back home and report back my findings (or lack of...)

[AlanRogers]

It is but then you're stringing together several incompatible disparate technologies to create one communicating whole. Therefore it's only good practice to test each link in the chain, rather than just hoping the chain is good.

[Doc Robin]

Hi Cromponnut

 

Marshall Stull has written a brief guide to wireless DCC in his latest blog entry on August 30th, using a SPROG, JMRI etc with a number of screenshots to help illustrate the solution.

 

The URL is.http://smallmr.com/wordpress/