Livery for pannier tank 8783 in British Railways days

[Douglas G]

Can anyone advise me please on the livery for pannier tank 8783, which came to Taunton in the summer of 1962 after being at Swindon, and then went to Llanelly early in 1963.

 

There has been discussion on the forum recently about those locomotives that retained Great Western Livery right through well into British Railways days, and this loco was one of them. It is shown in "The Last Days of Steam in Bristol and Somerset" by Colin Maggs with "GWR" on the tanks at Chard Junction on 25-08-62, and it is also shown in "Great Western Railway Pannier Tanks"  by Robin Jones at Andover in 1962 with GWR clearly visible. But they are both black and white photos.

 

My question is: would the paint be black or green? I understand the GWR letters were used in the period 1942-1947, and black paint was applied to all but some express locomotives from 1942 to 1945, before a return was made to green up to nationalisation. I haven't seen any RTR N gauge panniers with the GWR letters on black paint, just green ones.

 

A Google search suggests a Colour Rail slide of this loco has been sold on ebay, but I can't see anything listed when I search the Colour Rail site.

 

Thanks,

 

Douglas

[Miss Prism]

My question is: would the paint be black or green?

 

It could have been either, but by 1962 the colour of the paint underneath the grime would be academic. 

[Karhedron]

Hello,

 

I managed to track down a thumbnail of this slide but the colour was not clear. To be fair the loco is so dirty that even the slide probably doesn't show the colour very well. The GWR lettering looked rather indistinct suggesting that is was showing through with the overlying paint having worn off (possibly assisted by over-enthusiastic cleaners ).

 

If I wanted to model it, I would probably start with a black loco as the base, remove the BR crest, put GWR transfers on and then work to distress the lettering. Lastly I would weather the whole thing heavily.

[Douglas G]

Thanks for the comments, guys - I have heard from the two forum members I was expecting and hoping to hear from  :-)

 

I found that thumbnail of the Colour Rail slide when I was searching in Google Images, Matt, and was frustrated that it was such a tiny and indistinct image. I wonder why colour Rail have not made all the slides they used to sell available as digital images.

 

In the black and white one of the loco in August 1962 at Chard Junction, the GWR letters are quite visible and clear, suggesting the paint colour might also still be apparent through the dirt.

 

I have noticed that in many photos locos of the 1950s and 1960s that locos I know were green can appear black, especially if a bit grimy.

 

I may just go for a GWR green loco as a base for a weathering job.

 

Thanks,

 

Douglas

[Karhedron]

Apologies for resurrecting this thread after so many years but a decent colour shot of 8783 has come to light at Taunton in 1962. Anyone care to hazard a guess as to what colour it is?

 

Edited January 27, 2020 by Karhedron

[Miss Prism]

Post deleted owing to number confusion.

 

Edited January 20, 2020 by Miss Prism

[brianthesnail96]

It's 8783, right loco for this thread, Karhedron has transposed the last two digits is all. 

 

As for what colour it is... 

[Wickham Green]

Can the colour be worked out from the build date and - theoretical - repainting frequency ? : my model of 4610 is based on a loco built in '42 and may have been green or black to start with ( Building of this batch and adoption of black are noted - separately - in the same Railway Mag ! ) ........ I've guessed it was black and guessed it wasn't repainted before 1948 ( my layout ) 'cos of the war  -  but under the filth nobody can tell anyway !

[andyman7]

Gunge?

[The Johnster]

Mostly gunge.  G W R lettering was introduced in 1942 as part of austerity measures for all bar King, Castle, and Hall classes (10xx County included on introduction in ‘44), with black livery.  This was superceded post VE day with unlined green, retaining the lettering.   8783 was built in 1929, and unless one can identify the dates it was repainted, as GW locos were overhauled on a mileage rather than time interval basis, is problematic if you attempt to extrapolate periods between overhauls. 
 

On balance the later 1945/7 green is probably less unlikely than black IMHO. Note that this loco was built without a top feed and does not have one here, but this does not preclude a top feed replacement boiler being fitted at an interim overhaul, replaced at he loco’s last overhaul by this one.  It is also possible that one or both tanks have been replaced from by whatever was at the top of the stock pile at a more recent BR overhaul. 
 

 

 

 

Edited January 22, 2020 by The Johnster

[Wickham Green]

Good point ....... unlike a side tank loco, the panniers have got to come off for a boiler change.

[TheSignalEngineer]

On 20/01/2020 at 16:13, Karhedron said:

Anyone care to hazard a guess as to what colour it is?

Unlined crud, somtimes mistaken for sun-dried cowpat.

[Karhedron]

Can we deduce anything from the yellow route indicator disc? I think the class changed from Blue to Yellow in 1950 so I would guess this feature comes from then. Would this have been done at a repaint? If so, we could be seeing the GWR lettering that has been revealed by over-zealous cleaning of the overlying BR livery.

 

On the other hand, if the discs were applied independently, it could still be pre-nationalisation livery. 12 years is plenty of time for the route indicators to weather to the same level of overall filth as the rest of the loco.

[Steamport Southport]

I'm thinking that it had BR black at one point. I can't believe that it was allocated to Swindon for over 10 years and didn't get a repaint.

 

http://www.brdatabase.info/locoqry.php?action=locodata&type=S&id=8783&loco=8783

 

 

 

Jason

[Miss Prism]

1 hour ago, Karhedron said:

If so, we could be seeing the GWR lettering that has been revealed by over-zealous cleaning of the overlying BR livery.

 

I believe that to be the case here.

 

[The Johnster]

1 hour ago, Steamport Southport said:

I'm thinking that it had BR black at one point. I can't believe that it was allocated to Swindon for over 10 years and didn't get a repaint.

 

http://www.brdatabase.info/locoqry.php?action=locodata&type=S&id=8783&loco=8783

 

 

 

Jason

Possible though.  Overhauls (and thus repaints) were done in a mileage basis  so ling as the boiler was certified, and a yard pilot could take a long time to accumulate mileage. 

[Steamport Southport]

Photo of it here at Swindon in the 1950s which is not clear what livery it is carrying. However this phrase is interesting "With replacement welded seam tanks".

 

https://www.rail-online.co.uk/p416923824/ea46161ec

 

 

 

Jason

[Miss Prism]

21 hours ago, Steamport Southport said:

However this phrase is interesting "With replacement welded seam tanks".

 

Misleading caption now removed.

 

[Wickham Green]

Maybe the thread should be re-captioned as "Livery for pannier tanks CARRIED BY 8783 in British Railways days" ??!?

[Halvarras]

Back in September 2016 while on holiday in South Devon we visited the Trago Mills emporium in Newton Abbot where I found a book "Western Branches, Western Byways" by Kevin McCormack. In this is a colour photo of 9635 waiting at Newquay with a Truro via Perranporth working in 1961 displaying GWR on its side tank and in much the same condition as 8783 in Karhedron's photo above. Having an avid interest in Cornwall's railways I bought the book mainly for this photo!

Twenty minutes later I was viewing the large indoor model railway there and was gobsmacked to find a Bachmann model of 9635 in GWR green in a display case! Catalogue number 32-208A. What were the chances?! 

I checked its allocation and IIRC it came to Truro shed from Tyseley, only stayed for that summer and went to Taunton via Swindon Works - I found a b&w photo of it outside A Shop freshly repainted with late BR emblem but the outline of the 'G' was still visible under the paint. The running gear appeared untouched suggesting just enough attention to keep it going a while longer.

[Miss Prism]

On 27/01/2020 at 16:58, The Johnster said:

Overhauls (and thus repaints) were done in a mileage basis so ling as the boiler was certified, and a yard pilot could take a long time to accumulate mileage. 

 

So how was mileage estimated and recorded for yard pilots/shunters?

 

[brossard]

I'm no expert on these things but I think the picture is great.  I have a 74XX to weather as if it was around 1955.  First I have to add a topfeed, which I think I see on the picture.  The loco I have has the same lettering as the picture and is green.  I believe BR moved the route disk to just above the number plate.

 

John

Edited February 1, 2020 by brossard

[The Johnster]

The green G W R 'initials' livery was used from 1945 to 48, and would certainly have still been on a good number of locos in 1955; most locos painted in late '47 would not require their next overhaul for a while in '55.  Signs of BR ownership would be evident nonetheless, as smokebox number plates and shedcode plates were fixed on at the sheds.  Route discs were moved after mid '48 I think (but am happy to be corrected), and the 57xx/8750 were arbitrarily changed from blue to yellow at the same time, again at the sheds.

 

How pilot mileage was assessed I have no idea, good question Ms P!  If I were to make an assumption, bearing in mind that even passenger express locos must have accumulated some yard/depot mileage, there was probably a formula for it.  Presumably locos fitted with speedometers had odometers as well.  Mileage in general was recorded by the driver in his 'journal', a daily record of his work used to record mileages, timings, delays and who they were attributed to, and any other matters pertaining in 'notes', the information being used to work out loco mileage, timetables, and his pay and bonuses.  He also kept a personal log book with the same information.  Guards did this as well; actually operating trains involves more paperwork than you might think!

 

But shunting work and the places it took place in was highly varied.  Pilot locos in busy marshalling yards and major carriage sidings were in continual use back and forth, but even a fairly big goods depot might need a lot less actual action and the loco spent more time hanging about waiting for wagons to be loaded or unloaded.  A dock system might involve a good bit of distance actually travelled as well; the  sheer area size of dock networks at the South Wales ports and Avonmouth was impressive.  It would be interesting to have an authoritative answer to this (Staionmaster to the thread, please, paging Stationmaster...).

 

Diesel and electric traction presumably has odometers, but we were still recording routes travelled and thus by extension mileages in journals in the 70s, and keeping an eye on mileage as there was a mileage bonus payment if you went even a yard over 56 miles from your home depot!

Edited February 1, 2020 by The Johnster

[Miss Prism]

18 hours ago, The Johnster said:

Route discs were moved after mid '48 I think

 

The move was adopted to aid visibility in wartime conditions, so I assume probably started in 1942, accompanying the other major wartime livery changes. How quickly the move was applied I don't know, but presumably was something a major shed could do rather than requiring a works visit. 

 

[The Johnster]

Thanks for that, Ms P; I'd been told this before but it was one of those things that had fallen through the holes in the Swiss cheese my brain is made of...

 

Work like this could be done at even small shed; all it needs is a stencil and a few pots of paint.  This would explain anomalies of course, as no doubt not all sheds were equally quick off the mark in carrying out the instruction or even in receiving it,  and some places were very short staffed during the war and post war period, so perhaps did not bother for some time.  It must have seemed of very minor importance when there was heavy war traffic, trains to man and provide locos for, a backlog of maintenance, shortages of materials, and the bombs were falling around you as well.

Edited February 2, 2020 by The Johnster