Norton961 Posted August 5, 2014 Share Posted August 5, 2014 I have an ex LMS Inspection saloon which I want to use on my 4mm P4 layout circa 1962, but am unsure how they were used. The question is we're they pulled or were they pushed? The few photos i have dont make it clear? Did it make a difference if the loco used was steam or diesel? I know that I'f a diesel was used the head code was Iv01 Can anybody help as I am keen to replicate real railway practice. David Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted August 5, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted August 5, 2014 Saloons were either hauled or propelled depending on what their programme for a particular job happened to be and depending on the route they too (i.e they could be hauled for part of a day's work and propelled for the rest of it. They worked, according to date, with either steam or diesel traction (I don't know about electric but you never can tell!). The headcode would not be 1V01 as that is an inter-Regional train to the Western Region, they would run usually with a Z or X number (depending in some respects on what they were doing). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norton961 Posted August 5, 2014 Author Share Posted August 5, 2014 Mike, Thanks for the info. Re the head code, my mistake and typo, it should have been IZ01! Bizarrely in 1967 some Warships were allocated to Bescot and on one day D809 was sent from Wolverhampton to Wellington and then to Donnington, Newport and Stafford and then back to Bescot with an inspection saloon. This is not some vague memory but a thread from a driver at Bescot. My layout under construction is Trench sidings between Wellington and Donnington and as I love Warships it gives me the excuse to run one through my location. I now have to work out what steam locomotives hauled the inspection saloon in the area. Crewe North had a pet BR standard 2 78030 which I understand was used for Inspection saloon work and Wolverhampton also had a pet BR standard 2 in green, but I think that would have only worked on the main line to Wellington, the line to Stafford being LM region. Thanks David Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bike2steam Posted August 5, 2014 Share Posted August 5, 2014 The few times that I saw the inspection saloon hauled by Bescot locos it was either of the two green Ivatt class 2 moguls, 46522 & 46527, but they weren't allocated there until 1963, before that I can't remember. The one used on the old GWR from Wolverhampton was Oxley's 78008, but when I saw it the old GWR line was part of the LMR, when that loco was withdrawn a mate of mine struggled home with that locos smokebox number plate across his cycle handlebars all the way to his home in Wednesfield . Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Enterprisingwestern Posted August 5, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted August 5, 2014 The LMS saloons used to appear in the 60's/70's on the MML and NE/SW lines around the Sheffield area as first coach behind the loco in normal passenger trains, don't know whether they were being used for some official purpose or if it was a positioning move though. Mike. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norton961 Posted August 6, 2014 Author Share Posted August 6, 2014 I have discovered via another thread that after steam finished, Bescot would put anything on to it's Inspection saloon workings including Class 40, Class 45, Class 25 and Class 47. The Class 47 worked through to Donnington after the section from Donnington to Stafford was closed and at Donnington the driver said he was unsure whether to proceed as he could not see the rails because of the weeds and grass! David Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
eastwestdivide Posted August 6, 2014 Share Posted August 6, 2014 Saloons were either hauled or propelled depending on what their programme for a particular job happened to be and depending on the route they too (i.e they could be hauled for part of a day's work and propelled for the rest of it. They worked, according to date, with either steam or diesel traction (I don't know about electric but you never can tell!). Miles away from the OP's area, but this might count for your electric: I think 73125 and TDM 395280 (both numbers not entirely clear on the original) at Clapham Junction in 1987. Looks like it's being propelled as there's no tail lamp Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cromptonnut Posted August 6, 2014 Share Posted August 6, 2014 Are you sure? That looks like 73142 "Broadlands" to me due to the two plaques under the nameplate. 73125 was "Stewarts Lane" which has a normal rectangular nameplate. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
br2975 Posted August 6, 2014 Share Posted August 6, 2014 Miles away from the OP's area, but this might count for your electric: 87-10-22.jpg I think 73125 and TDM 395280 (both numbers not entirely clear on the original) at Clapham Junction in 1987. Looks like it's being propelled as there's no tail lamp Without wishing to sound 'picky' - this is a 'route learning' (or R oute T raining) working as oposed to an inspection trip - the Southern blagged this saloon from the LMR for just that purpose. . Brian R Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norton961 Posted August 7, 2014 Author Share Posted August 7, 2014 It's amazing what memories perculate to the surface when prompted. The question of what locos Bescot used for its inspection saloon in the steam era before either of the Ivatt class 2 2-6-0,s 46522 and 46527 arrived in 1963. Bescot in 1962 had one of the last surviving Fowler 2p 4-4-0 40694 and I understand that's it's primary duties were on the inspection saloon. Depots that provided motive power for inspection saloons seem to have "pet" engines and I understand that 40694 was in this category as was Oxley' 78008 and Crewe Norths 78030. David Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold TheSignalEngineer Posted August 7, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted August 7, 2014 I've seen pictures of 40646 in its Bescot days acting as the Walsall PWay Yard trip loco, which was the turn which sometimes worked the saloon. It will put in another appearance when mine arrives. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
eastwestdivide Posted August 7, 2014 Share Posted August 7, 2014 Are you sure? That looks like 73142 "Broadlands" to me due to the two plaques under the nameplate. 73125 was "Stewarts Lane" which has a normal rectangular nameplate. No I'm not sure! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cromptonnut Posted August 7, 2014 Share Posted August 7, 2014 As far as I know, Broadlands was the only one with two plaques under the nameplate. It had a 'celebrity status' of sorts of course, having hauled Charles and Diana's wedding train. Most "1981 royal wedding train" images seem to pick up on the dress for some strange reason but I did find this shot. https://www.flickr.com/photos/24972344@N02/8234909084/ Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
eastwestdivide Posted August 7, 2014 Share Posted August 7, 2014 My own effort on Charles and Diana's train in the archive here: http://www.rmweb.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?p=539735#p529048 (Still marginally on-topic, as there's a saloon on the back of that train, 975025) And yes, it does look like 73142 in my saloon photo a few posts back here. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norton961 Posted August 7, 2014 Author Share Posted August 7, 2014 A friend has found a detailed article on Inspection Saloons, it's Model Rail, July 2006. If I had the article I would not have needed to post this thread! The article is extensive and gives details of all the ex LMS Inspection saloons and gives the history of all the vehicles through to the current day. The saloon at Bescot (actually Walsall District) was number 45044, with 45029 was the Crewe District saloon. Apparently the Ivatt 2 2-6-0,s were popular as they had a tender cab usefull when running tender first in the rain! David Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold TheSignalEngineer Posted August 7, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted August 7, 2014 The saloon at Bescot (actually Walsall District) was number 45044, with 45029 was the Crewe District saloon. Apparently the Ivatt 2 2-6-0,s were popular as they had a tender cab usefull when running tender first in the rain! David In my days the Walsall saloon was kept in a shed at the PWay yard at Corporation St West. (The site of the Network Rail depot). The local S&T offices were on the same site. In 1982 TDM45026 was at Walsall. I rode it on a tour of Stourbridge Extension, OWW and South Staffs boxes behind 25051. http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/57246-black-country-blues-rolling-stock-workbench/page-4&do=findComment&comment=748725 That may have been borrowed from elsewhere, as on another trip the attendant managed to blow the window out of the kitchen when brewing up during one of the stops. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
kenw Posted September 3, 2014 Share Posted September 3, 2014 Steam World May '14 edition has a picture of ex GN saloon DE320042 - now the NYMR wheelchair saloon - near Bytham, May '64. t's stopped on slow line while an inspection's taking place on the fast, and is working hauled by an Ivatt 4 2-6-0 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Phil Bullock Posted September 3, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted September 3, 2014 Hi David Don't know if you have seen post #89 in http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/11410-abbotswood-junction/page-4 - inspection saloon at your junction! Kind regards Phil Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
EddieB Posted October 24, 2015 Share Posted October 24, 2015 I've just rediscovered this thread while searching for information on a photo taken back in 1986, logged in a book but overlooked and not added to my database (until today). Here is TDM395280 at Clapham Junction in June 1986. This is the same carriage depicted in the "Broadlands " picture (from 1987), but from the other sisde. At this time the saloon was painted all over in one colour (red?). It seems that the saloon was in blue and grey prior to my photo (http://www.rail-online.co.uk/p903488673/h4ACA7AE8#h4aca7ae8, April 1980). Incidentally another view taken of the same side as mine (https://www.flickr.com/photos/60854097@N06/6563137075) shows that the carriage had large windows at either end. The carriage was built as a corridor restaurant at Derby in 1938 (LMS 30106) and converted to a saloon in 1958. It was later numbered DB999504, in which state it passed into EWS ownership, who then donated it to the Appleby-Frodingham RPS at Scunthorpe Steel Works (where it resides awaiting completion of restoration -see Vintage Carriage Trust register: http://www.cs.vintagecarriagestrust.org/se/CarriageInfo.asp?Ref=3725). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hmrspaul Posted October 24, 2015 Share Posted October 24, 2015 I wasn't available when this posting was opened. My only photo of an inspection saloon being worked is http://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/inspectionsaloon/e9367c2 In this case it was propelled into Chepstow station and, after a very brief halt was pulled out the way it came. Paul Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnw1 Posted October 25, 2015 Share Posted October 25, 2015 A couple of shots from the mid 1970's 25076 has paused here whilst an inspection is made "on foot" before departing down the branch propelling the saloon https://www.flickr.com/photos/pics-by-john/5580936225/ 31235 working .Z01 and even though its mid July its a good job its got a working steam heating boiler https://www.flickr.com/photos/pics-by-john/6095254329/ Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Southernman46 Posted October 25, 2015 Share Posted October 25, 2015 Back in the day when I had to work for a living, occasionally I'd to get to show off how good the PW in my section was to the Head of Track from the front of this .............. note the 3,500hp of 37 used to shove us around for the day Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AberdeenBill Posted October 25, 2015 Share Posted October 25, 2015 This is a probably really stupid question, but... Did inspection saloons have any kind of driving controls or other means of communication with the locomotive, when being propelled? Thanks, Bill Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Southernman46 Posted October 25, 2015 Share Posted October 25, 2015 The one above (Caroline) has a complete SR driving position that controls the locos via the blue star arrangement Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium keefer Posted October 25, 2015 RMweb Premium Share Posted October 25, 2015 This is a probably really stupid question, but... Did inspection saloons have any kind of driving controls or other means of communication with the locomotive, when being propelled? Thanks, Bill Emergency brake valve and horn only, I think. Presumably the loco crew would be fully briefed beforehand as to the planned trip. 'Caroline' was originally an SR saloon through and through - converted from an ex-Hastings unit buffet, it once carried the high-level brake pipes, control jumpers and controls to allow it to work in multiple with pretty much anything post-EPB. It also had retractable shoegear to power on board facilities if ETH wasn't available! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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