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BR Southern Region Green Painted Former Pullman Cars


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Hello

 

Towards the rear of Michael Welch's excellent work of reference 'Southern Coaches in Colour' is a former Pullman car in BR Southern Region green livery carrying BUFFET lettering and the number 182 although it was subsequently renumbered along with others as S7875.

 

I have acquired a cheap current production Hornby R4146 Pullman coach with the intentions of repainting it green to represent one of these Pullman cars that had most definitely been demoted. However the only picture in BR green I have found thus far is the one in the aforementioned book.  What I would ideally like to find is a shot of the other side preferably later in life when the S prefix four figure number was carried.

 

Anyone know of a book or online location where other shots of it or one of the same batch in BR(S) condition can be found?  Also am I right in thinking in their demoted state the lamps and curtains were removed?

 

TIA!

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You could contact the Historical Model Railway Society Pullman steward, Charles Long. He doesn't have an email address but his postal address is 2 Garlands Court, Garlands Road, Leatherhead, Surrey KT22 7EU. There was quite a bit about Pullman cars in the HMRS Journal a few years ago. Remember to send an SAE.

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Just realised I have made a major boo boo with the donor coach.  The general window layout is correct, it just has one too many windows, i.e. its too long!!! (It is also too wide as well but that I am happy to overlook)

 

Looks like a simple repaint job just got more complicated.  Now, where did I put my razor saw?

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Like a lot of modelling projects, we have a choice of compromise or scratchbuilding, where no RTR or kits exist. If you can live with the compromise on width, then no one else will probably ever realise or know that it's not quite accurate! :)

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As already stated above the six Hastings Pullmans first introduced in 1926 were 57' 1.1/2" long and built to the restriction 0 width of 8'1" rather than the usual Pullman width of 8'"6. They were built to the then new 'K' type specification with wooden bodies on steel underframes by the Metropolitan-Cammell Carriage and Wagon Works.

Leaving aside the body width the window configuration due the different length was different to the prototype of the Hornby models such as the position of the Oval window.

 

All six of this built were painted green in 1958 lettered 'Buffet' minus names but retaining their Pullman schedule numbers. In 1961 they were numbered into BR(s) stock numbers S7872S to S7877s in the following order: 180 (Camilla), 181 (Latona), 184 (Theodora), 182 (Madeline), 184 (Pomona) and 185 (Barbara). The Hadrian Bar formally car No. 59 was also so treated and gained the SR stock number S7879S.

They were used mainly on the Southampton Boat trains up to their withdrawal by 1963.

 

I can confirm that the table lamps and curtains were indeed removed.

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  • 7 months later...

post-24846-0-26140300-1426172637_thumb.jpgpost-24846-0-36415400-1426172638_thumb.jpgSo happens I'm working on exactly this kind of project right now. I bought an old Hornby Dublo Pullman to do as one of the green ones in the Ocean Liner Express formations. As the attached pics will show, I've modified this to "broadly" comply with the 1926 Hastings prototypes. Took all the detailing off so I can replace it with Microstrip in the right places, and using Slaters sheet 0432 (1mm planking) I'm hoping to reproduce the match boarding. 

The coach is 234mm long and 33 wide, so not a million miles out. As was mentioned earlier in the thread, it will be a fun item to include in e.g. an excursion train, or based at the seaside branch terminus as a seasonal refreshments facility in the bay platform. Will post further pics as the project develops.

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Wrenn made some Pullman coaches in Southern malachite green livery with yellow lining, table lamps and probably without curtains in 1989. Their catalogue numbers were W6006-8. They are probably collectors' items now and would need repainting in BR coach green to look anything like the green Pullman coaches on the Southern Region of British Railways. Wrenn does say that six wooden bodied cars built in 1926 were repainted green in 1958 and used on Waterloo-Southampton Docks boat trains. After being transferred to Southern Region stock around 1960 they were withdrawn in 1963/64.

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Just to correct a common misconception the Hastings Pullmans were NOT short - they were the same

62ft 4in over headstocks as all other K class Pullmans. They were just narrower, ie 8ft 1in rather

than the usual 8ft 6in.

 

Chris Knowles-Thomas

That's correct but a shame as I was just getting excited about the 'collection' of Wrenn Pullmans I have had for donkey's years and still haven't sold on! They, of course. are far too short if used individually but used to look quite good behind the Wrenn Rebuilt Bulleid Pacific. Happy days.

There are two lovely & comprehensive books about Pullman Coaches, but I've forgotten who did them. Sorry.

Phil

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Phil, The books I suspect you're thinking of are the Pullman Profiles by Anthony M Ford and published

by Noodle Books. So far there have been four:-

 

No. 1: The 12-Wheel Cars

No. 2: The Standard 'K-Type' Cars

No. 3: The All-Steel 'K-Type' Cars

No. 4: The Brighton Belle and Southern Electric Pullmans

 

Chris Knowles-Thomas

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Phil, The books I suspect you're thinking of are the Pullman Profiles by Anthony M Ford and published

by Noodle Books. So far there have been four:-

 

No. 1: The 12-Wheel Cars

No. 2: The Standard 'K-Type' Cars

No. 3: The All-Steel 'K-Type' Cars

No. 4: The Brighton Belle and Southern Electric Pullmans

 

Chris Knowles-Thomas

Oh yes. I borrowed a couple from Peterborough North's Gilbert when I was looking at Cars for a SR special I want to replicate. Hadn't realised there were 4.

Thanks

Phil

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Ok about 15.5mm out, but given the light duties the coach will perform - often stationary partially hidden, I'm not minded to start all over again with a more expensive donor.

My shelf layout already has Hornby (ex Triang) clerestories converted to a Push Pull set. Of course whilst this may appal some folks, its all part of the fun for me in taking something cheap or basic and being creative with it. Besides which the budget has already been spent on locos, scenics and wood supplies, so some discomfort in the rolling stock dept is to be expected! 

Pic of the "work in progress" Push Pull set is attached. I must add that this is not intended to be an exact replica of any prototype, just to a generic design which will suit my fictitious SR/lately WR branch line. Now wait till you see some of the train formations...

post-24846-0-70426100-1426417271_thumb.jpg

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I like your approach/attitude to the 'inexpensive approach'.

Phil

Thanks Phil, I have a home, a car, a staffy bull terrier and a railway, all with demands on my limited income! Anyone with the funds can throw vast amounts of money in the pursuit of ultimate accuracy. But is it always worth it? I have a lot of fun doing it my way.

 

Keith

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John,

 

I have only just come across this topic. I am not sure if it's the same as the one that you mention in your 1st post but there's a photo of green-liveried no.182 in volume 1 no 3 (Aug-Sept '91) edition of Modeller's BackTrack. The photo was taken by Dick Riley & shows the car in a train passing through Gypsy Hill.

 

There's also a b&w broadside photo of No 184 (ex Theodora) in Kidner's 'Pullman Cars on the Southern'. The book alos includes a drawing of 'Barbara' & appears to show it as 66ft plus one quarter inch over buffers.

 

Hope that is not too late to help.

 

Philip

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  • 6 years later...
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Been back to this in recent weeks and car 182 in Green certainly looked short to me, compared to the adjoining coaches. Thus I was fooled.

So I have also checked my 'tomes' and they, the K Type, were 63' 10". Optical illusion then?

The Train I was going on about earlier here and am replicating, is a Special (Westcountryman?) in September 1958, down through Seaton Junction, explained in Six Bells Junction; 3 Pullmans in Pullman Livery (one possibly a 12 wheeler) and a Green un that is most likely Hadrian Bar, sandwiched in a Bulleid set. Such fun.

Only have to paint one green then!

P

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On 10/08/2014 at 10:57, Graham_Muz said:

As already stated above the six Hastings Pullmans first introduced in 1926 were 57' 1.1/2" long and built to the restriction 0 width of 8'1" rather than the usual Pullman width of 8'"6. They were built to the then new 'K' type specification with wooden bodies on steel underframes by the Metropolitan-Cammell Carriage and Wagon Works.

Leaving aside the body width the window configuration due the different length was different to the prototype of the Hornby models such as the position of the Oval window.

 

All six of this built were painted green in 1958 lettered 'Buffet' minus names but retaining their Pullman schedule numbers. In 1961 they were numbered into BR(s) stock numbers S7872S to S7877s in the following order: 180 (Camilla), 181 (Latona), 184 (Theodora), 182 (Madeline), 184 (Pomona) and 185 (Barbara). The Hadrian Bar formally car No. 59 was also so treated and gained the SR stock number S7879S.

They were used mainly on the Southampton Boat trains up to their withdrawal by 1963.

 

I can confirm that the table lamps and curtains were indeed removed.

Been back to this in recent weeks and car 182 in Green certainly looked short to me, compared to the adjoining coaches. Thus I was fooled and certainly thought they were 'short', but no.

So I have also checked my  Hugh Longworth Vol 2 and they, the K Type, were 63' 10". Optical illusion then?

The Train I was going on about earlier here and am replicating, is a Special (Westcountryman?) in September 1958, down through Seaton Junction, explained in Six Bells Junction; 3 Pullmans in Pullman Livery (one possibly a 12 wheeler) and a Green un that is most likely Hadrian Bar, sandwiched in a Bulleid set. Such fun.

Only have to paint one green then! Bloody good job I am a very, very slow worker.......:scared:

P

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The Hadrian Bar wouldn't have been green and, in Pullman livery, it formed part of the regular Tyne-Tees Pullman set until 1969.

 

The green ex-Pullman buffet cars were the six vehicles that had provided Pullman accommodation in SR Eastern Section ordinary (ie non-boat train) services until WWII, and these were cars 180 (CAMILLA), 181 (LATONA), 182 (MADELEINE), 183 (POMONA), 184 (THEODORA) and 185 (BARBARA). After storage during WWII three cars 180, 181 and 184 were transferred to the Western Section for use as Pullman cars in Southampton Ocean Liner expresses, retaining their names, while cars 182, 183 and 185 were converted to act as buffet cars in London-Tunbridge Wells-Hastings services with the legend REFRESHMENT CAR replacing their names, all cars retaining Pullman livery at this stage. In 1958, the three Western Section cars were also rebuilt as buffet cars (but with detail difference to the other three), and all six were repainted green with the legend BUFFET on their sides. London-Hastings services were, at this stage, being replaced by DEMUs but the seven 6B units with buffet cars were the last to arrive and until this happened limited steam services with the now green ex-Pullman buffets were retained. With the arrival of the 6B units the three ex-Pullman buffet cars joined their three comrades on the Western section, mainly for Ocean Liner traffic but also for Race and other specials. All six became part of BR stock in 1961 with BR S------S numbers but soon became redundant.

 

All six were short 57'-1½" and narrow 8'-1" to fit within SR restriction 0 to enable them to work on the Hastings route.

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The six 'Hastings' cars were 63ft 10in over vestibule the same as other 'K' type cars but were 8ft 1in wide instead of the usual 8ft 7in so complying with Restriction 0.

 

'K' type car 59, 'The Hadrian Bar' in the Tees-Tyne Pullman' from 1948 was replaced by a BR Mark 1 Pullman (car 354) with the same name in 1961.  It was then sold to the S. region 23/4/61 and became Buffet Car S7879S in green.

 

Chris KT

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On 16/06/2021 at 01:04, chris45lsw said:

The six 'Hastings' cars were 63ft 10in over vestibule the same as other 'K' type cars but were 8ft 1in wide instead of the usual 8ft 7in so complying with Restriction 0.

 

'K' type car 59, 'The Hadrian Bar' in the Tees-Tyne Pullman' from 1948 was replaced by a BR Mark 1 Pullman (car 354) with the same name in 1961.  It was then sold to the S. region 23/4/61 and became Buffet Car S7879S in green.

 

Chris KT

Thus my 1958 train* didn't have that in it. I shall have to investigate the dates of the other green conversions in '58, before the *Special. Many thanks, saved me some grief with your info.

Phil.

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On 15/06/2021 at 20:58, bécasse said:

The Hadrian Bar wouldn't have been green and, in Pullman livery, it formed part of the regular Tyne-Tees Pullman set until 1969.

 

The green ex-Pullman buffet cars were the six vehicles that had provided Pullman accommodation in SR Eastern Section ordinary (ie non-boat train) services until WWII, and these were cars 180 (CAMILLA), 181 (LATONA), 182 (MADELEINE), 183 (POMONA), 184 (THEODORA) and 185 (BARBARA). After storage during WWII three cars 180, 181 and 184 were transferred to the Western Section for use as Pullman cars in Southampton Ocean Liner expresses, retaining their names, while cars 182, 183 and 185 were converted to act as buffet cars in London-Tunbridge Wells-Hastings services with the legend REFRESHMENT CAR replacing their names, all cars retaining Pullman livery at this stage. In 1958, the three Western Section cars were also rebuilt as buffet cars (but with detail difference to the other three), and all six were repainted green with the legend BUFFET on their sides. London-Hastings services were, at this stage, being replaced by DEMUs but the seven 6B units with buffet cars were the last to arrive and until this happened limited steam services with the now green ex-Pullman buffets were retained. With the arrival of the 6B units the three ex-Pullman buffet cars joined their three comrades on the Western section, mainly for Ocean Liner traffic but also for Race and other specials. All six became part of BR stock in 1961 with BR S------S numbers but soon became redundant.

 

All six were short 57'-1½" and narrow 8'-1" to fit within SR restriction 0 to enable them to work on the Hastings route.

Thanks ever so much though. 63' 10" K Cars according to my details in the Longworth Vol 2 Book and also as commented on by chris45lsw several times on here.

Phil

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