ThaneofFife Posted August 13, 2014 Share Posted August 13, 2014 In all honesty i see about 200 pledges from here maximum all day long with a gale force following wind. So far id say we're just into double figures. Good luck to those needing to pull 1000 pledges in. If you do it you deserve a big pat on the back...... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DJM Dave Posted August 13, 2014 Author Share Posted August 13, 2014 Looking at the reactions on here, there does seem to be a fair bit of time for the idea of a Pendolino. As I have sad a few times, I would love one and I think importantly I would be prepared to wait a little while to get one. Why do I say that? Others have mentioned that as yet DJM has not produced a completed N gauge model, so perhaps the best bet would be to continue to raise to profile of this idea, trying to push beyond the bounds of just RMweb whilst we wait for the first N gauge model to appear. If Dave can continue improving where he left off at Dapol with high quality N gauge models then it would look to me like it is game on and we can prove that DJM can do the job to all potential investors. For this to progress more than an idea it will need a lot of research and promotion. Naturally a thorough investigation of the potential market for a Pendo, looking at how similar units have fared on the market (i.e. would the be another 350 in terms of sales or a Blue Pullman?) and of course assess all of the funding options available, £250,000 is a big sum to find. I suppose an important question to raise now would be about the projected availability of production slots over the next two years and whether the Dave sees any potential problems going forwards for this model? Hi mate, Great points. With regards to your last paragraph, I have production and development slots slots available, and I know how to do this particular model, so I'm not envisaging any problems should funding get off the ground. However 10 or 20 on here won't get it to a minor cad cam stage, so proof of demand would be in the pudding. Cheers Dave Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
m0rris Posted August 13, 2014 Share Posted August 13, 2014 Hi Dave, Thanks for the reply. Your points are entirely fair enough, afterall you are running a business and not a charity! Ultimately if this turns out to be a busted flush of interest and we never see any progress beyond a pledge for 40 or so models then that is fair enough and those of use who really want Pendolinos will have to look elsewhere for their models. At the very least this will show us how much real interest there is in an N gauge model! Charlie Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Steve Purves Posted August 13, 2014 RMweb Premium Share Posted August 13, 2014 I would definately want one, towable... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
frobisher Posted August 13, 2014 Share Posted August 13, 2014 Am I correct in assuming that a minimum viable set (4 coaches) would require 4 of the 5 body types? A few assumptions follow, based on (www.virgintrains.co.uk/assets/pdf/global/seating-plan.pdf) and info above so correct me if I'm wrong... Your minimum would be DMSO + MS/TS + PTF + DMRF which would cover the minimum required body and roof toolings. At this point, all you're lacking is the PTSRMB body (I think). In very rough terms, you're perhaps dropping out 20% of the cost? In which case could stretch goals come into play? So for instance if the £200K mark is funded, for your £250 you get an 8 car Pendolino (sans PTSRMB). A supporting pledge (say £10-20) would give those a one time only option to purchase 4 car set (say at £125-£150?) or 8 car sets at the £250 mark (if you pledged for a full set, you'd also get the one time option to buy more at those prices). You'd probably manufacture a nominal 1000 4 car sets and 6-800 4 coach add on sets to cover this. At the £250K mark, the 4 coach add on set becomes 5 coaches so 8 becomes 9. (plus some sort of setup with the 10th and 11th coaches). Or I could be havering... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpendle Posted August 13, 2014 Share Posted August 13, 2014 In order to properly gauge interest from RMWeb members can a Poll associated with this thread be started? Theres' one on the Cmeoa Cutter thread asking how many people own a cutter or would like to buy one. Everyone who's interested in pledging can then vote on how many they would buy. I am guessing that if we can get 250 pledges on this forum then that would make it worthwhile expanding to a larger audience and publicizing this in the NGS Journal and other forums plus other Model railway publications John P Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Revolution Mike Posted August 13, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted August 13, 2014 The poll is a good idea, particularly if you can specify multiple purchases. Cheers, Mike Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpendle Posted August 13, 2014 Share Posted August 13, 2014 So how do we start a poll? John P Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpendle Posted August 13, 2014 Share Posted August 13, 2014 I did a search and found this. How do I create a poll? When posting a new topic or editing the first post of a topic, click the “Poll creation” tab below the main posting form; if you cannot see this, you do not have appropriate permissions to create polls. Enter a title and at least two options in the appropriate fields, making sure each option is on a separate line in the textarea. You can also set the number of options users may select during voting under “Options per user”, a time limit in days for the poll (0 for infinite duration) and lastly the option to allow users to amend their votes. So we need Dave to create the poll. I think the questins would need to be How many want 1 How many want 2 How many want 3 or more How many think we're p&&ssing in the wind John P Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DJM Dave Posted August 13, 2014 Author Share Posted August 13, 2014 Poll now live at the top of each page of this thread. Only a yes or no vote needed please. Cheers Dave Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium njee20 Posted August 13, 2014 RMweb Premium Share Posted August 13, 2014 First vote, wooo! Do I win a free set!? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Revolution Ben Posted August 13, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted August 13, 2014 Hello all, I think we need to keep this simple. If we start diluting the message with follow-on options for key vehicles then it may start to get confusing and messy. After all, £250 for a nine-car set is great value, and as I mentioned above if 9 cars is too much it should be simple to offload some. cheers Ben A. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
leachsprite4 Posted August 13, 2014 Share Posted August 13, 2014 I think this is a brilliant project I'm fully in support as in my mind this the train to model. I am a no vote at the moment but only because it's a rule one to far, in that I'm not sure it would clear my tunnels on bends. I'm also not sure how to convince the family to have a nine car model on display in the house. That said I hope to help with some observations. Firstly there may be some doubts because a djm model is yet to be held by the public and duly flogged to death round sharp curves and steep inclines. Although the O2 looks mighty fine and ngauge one would be grand. Therefore in six months it may be a better time to start although I imagine if the model media pick this up interest will pick up quickly. Secondly I think I read on an ngauge forum of some one 3d printing a pendelino so they may have some data which can help you out Dave. The approach of book sets seems like a good idea and the suggested form provides a good balance of standard and first class seating. Have Dapol actually shelved their development of this, as sods law you wait for ages then two turn up as they have kept theirs quiet. I will now retreat to my quiet corner and work on my 93xx GWR Mogul kit, which I started the day Dave announced the 43xx. He does scare me sometimes as I finiahed a 28xx kit the day Dapol announced the 2884 loco! Graham Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium njee20 Posted August 13, 2014 RMweb Premium Share Posted August 13, 2014 Secondly I think I read on an ngauge forum of some one 3d printing a pendelino so they may have some data which can help you out Dave. That would be bmthtrainsdavid, who's already replied to the thread. Impressive as his was, I'm sure he'd be the first to admit that it was a 'best endeavours' effort, rather than being mm perfect. Obviously I'm wholly in support of this, I sincerely doubt we'll even get 100 votes, as this is a small sub forum of a sub forum of a forum used only by a proportion of the UK modelling fraternity. I'm not sure, without actually doing a Kickstarter campaign and actually promoting it on all the forums and in the press , that you'll ever get an idea of the true demand. Chicken and egg though really. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DJM Dave Posted August 13, 2014 Author Share Posted August 13, 2014 That would be bmthtrainsdavid, who's already replied to the thread. Impressive as his was, I'm sure he'd be the first to admit that it was a 'best endeavours' effort, rather than being mm perfect. Obviously I'm wholly in support of this, I sincerely doubt we'll even get 100 votes, as this is a small sub forum of a sub forum of a forum used only by a proportion of the UK modelling fraternity. I'm not sure, without actually doing a Kickstarter campaign and actually promoting it on all the forums and in the press , that you'll ever get an idea of the true demand. Chicken and egg though really. Spread the word Njee, spread the word ;-) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Revolution Ben Posted August 13, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted August 13, 2014 Hello all, When it comes to spreading the word, timing is everything if there is only a limited period available to raise the funding. Also, as this will be largely a DJM project, it may be worth waiting for the first of the expected DJM models to appear and if they are as good as is expected then this will engender confidence at the key time. cheers Ben A. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Le Coq Posted August 13, 2014 Share Posted August 13, 2014 I would definitely take one, probably two, nine coach sets at £350 I wouldn't want a five coach set; too much risk that the other four carriages may fail to appear, leaving me with a white elephant I would be happy with three different vehicles - driving end, generic pan-equipped and non pan-equipped carriages (I know I'm probably in a minority of one here!) I wouldn't require interiors or super-high levels of exterior detail, as long as the shape was right and paint job crisp No tilting required It would have to go round SetTrack 9" curves (layout already built!) Cheers Jon Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black_bear Posted August 13, 2014 Share Posted August 13, 2014 I would definitely take one set Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
IainS Posted August 13, 2014 Share Posted August 13, 2014 2 nine car for me please. Would be amazing to see this succeed :0) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnshutts Posted August 13, 2014 Share Posted August 13, 2014 Hi Dave, Thanks for starting this thread - very innovative and a most welcome debate. Regardless as to whether this venture gets off the ground (I really hope it does), it's a great way of canvassing opinion on what models people really want to see and, by obtaining pledges up front, gaining commitment before taking things forward. Whilst I'm sure manufacturers do a huge amount of market research prior to investing the large amount of capital required to commence such projects (take the Bachmann Farish Blue Pullman for example), there is no guarantee that a model will make it from someone's wish list to a physical sale! This is always going to represent a risk compared with an up front financial commitment as would be the case here. So it appeals to as many modellers as possible, I agree with a couple of other contributors that you would need to be able to represent a "drag". Like many others, my layout doesn't include OHLE although I'd need less than half an excuse to create a Pendolino diversion. As the prototype has a cover that retracts to expose the coupler, a NEM pocket situated behind a similar removeable cover would do the job nicely. Just need to convince Bachmann to do their new Farish Dellner 57s in Virgin Livery ;-) Could be a game changer and I could see many other models brought to market in the same way if it's a success. Regards John Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
acko22 Posted August 13, 2014 Share Posted August 13, 2014 Ok well some of the points I was going to bring up have been covered. With regards to how many cars for a unit I would personally go for 5 it's more of a guaranteed size that well everyone can go for and if sales go well which in all honesty I do see once the initial batch were out there then there would be (hopefully) enough interest to: a) Introduce a complete 9 car set b) extra coaches for those that wish to have 9 or possibly 11 coaches Even if it was a case of having to purchase a 9 car set or nothing then well count me in! Although I know people want one and want one now would it not be worth waiting to see if the open access operator for the west coast actually appears and if they do take up the Pendolino then in turn with the variation in base liveries this would no doubt make it of more interest to a wider audience as well at the moment its virgin all the way and well lets be honest its not the most interesting of liveries out there. As to getting well a thousand people to sign up even if we had that many to sign up would it not be worth pushing it beyond Dave and get a large manufacturer to go in I know it takes profit away but may decrease the price and increase the chances of getting the model up and running as they will have the contact and facilities to ease the process somewhat. Ok finally the last part of my rambling, if there is issues getting the number required just on here then could it not be pushed out to other forum groups and societies to see firstly if there is enough initial interest in the model and in what number of cars, then to see in people are willing to put in as there are countless more modellers out there who are not on here that may be that 1000th person to sign up! Regards Gareth AKA acko Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Revolution Ben Posted August 13, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted August 13, 2014 Hello all, I really do think that splitting the trains up into packs of 4 or 5 is making things unnecessarily complex. And as data on the web gives the length of the driving cars as 25.1m, the intermediates as 23.9. So the total length of the vehicles in a 9-car Pendolino in N would be a fraction under 1798mm. Allowing an additional 5mm per car for coupler gaps gives us an overall length of, say, 1840. This is almost exactly 6', which I'd have thought most layouts could accommodate... cheers Ben A. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Martin Posted August 14, 2014 Share Posted August 14, 2014 I would certainly be interested in a pendolino. My issues would be: It would have to be a full 9 cars. I wouldn't need 11 and I wouldn't want 4 or 5 Not fussed about the tilt I'd need to know about the timescales. I probably couldn't commit £250 tomorrow, or next month or the month after that. I could certainly raise £250 and put it away somewhere pending the (successful, one hopes) conclusion of the kickstarter effort if I had a couple of months to save it up. I'm inclined to agree with the people who have suggested that this waits until DJM has actually delivered some models to market. Dave has a tremendous amount of goodwill here (which he's earned) but I see a considerable difference between signing up with a proven manufacturer and taking a punt on an operation with literally no product range at all. This is going to be as good an idea a year from now as it is today (and probably still as valid, since I don't see anyone else manufacturing a pendo in the meantime). I don't doubt that there's a hard core who are ready to go, right now; but this needs to go beyond them, because there aren't enough of them to sign up for a thousand models. That's going to be a lot easier if everyone can see a DJM model at their local dealer. I suspect that embarking on this now is going to clash with the plans that Dave already has in place. The history of product development in British N is filled with models that took forever to make it to the shops (case in point: if I signed up, the funds would probably come from what I'd planned to put aside for Dapol class 142s, a model which seems little closer now than it was 2 years ago or more); isn't this just going to add DJM to the list of manufacturers who appear to have been wildly over-ambitious? So, upshot: I've voted "yes" and I would buy one, but I have my doubts about whether this is the ideal time. Jim Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
gedlee Posted August 14, 2014 Share Posted August 14, 2014 Hi All I only came across this thread because some kind, thoughtful soul send me an email with a link. This is a great idea and I would certainly want a full set. I agree with the ideas and specifications mentioned above. Tilt would not be an issue as including it would increase the cost and it could bring operational issues on many a layout. So, count me in Dave. (I think you know I would say that anyway). I have voted 'yes' and I do wish that, collectively, we are successful. Cheers Ged. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danfilm007 Posted August 14, 2014 Share Posted August 14, 2014 Hello all If it was 6 months ago I would have said yes, but because I changed my era I have to say no. Sorry guys, and I would support it if richer! Dan Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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