N gauge Pendolino project

[Revolution Ben]

Hello all,

 

Mike and I have discussed the timings of this.  Kickstarter are very clear that the shorter the pledge period, the more minds seem to be focussed, and the greater the chance of success.

 

We probably won't be pledging for a 60 day period anyway, more like 45 days, but the actual pledge period is not critical; the critical date will be the end date, and that will be what we emphasise in our publicity in the hope that it does sink in and no one misses the deadline.

 

There is going to be a short delay while Kickstarter approve the scheme, and once the scheme closes there is also a delay of a few days before the money is actually taken, if the campaign succeeds.

 

It's also vitally important that the word is spread early on.  According to Kickstarter themselves, if a project gets to 20% of its funding goal, it then has an 81% chance of going the whole way and being successfully funded. So, if in the first couple of weeks we can get to 20% of the goal - that's 200 Pendolinos ordered - then we *should* get there if past experience is anything to go by.  I suspect there is a psychological aspect to this: people like to back a winner.

 

In truth, if we delay the Kickstarter until, say, the start of December so it finishes in mid January what is to be gained?  There will still be Xmas to be paid for, and the other costs of living.  And once Christmas is out of the way it's time to start saving for the summer holiday, or the kitchen appliance you need because the old one broke through over use when the in-laws came to stay, or whatever.  These days, with family budgets as tight as they are, there is never really a good time I'm sorry to say.  And while I truly want everyone who would like a Pendolino to be able to support us and get the model they want, for a non-essential* like model railways there will always be a balance.

 

Also, it has been some weeks since we decided to take this on (!) and so we'd like to think that those who want a Pendolino have been quietly setting aside a bit of cash, just in case.  I know I have.  Or maybe asking their loved ones to make a contribution as their Xmas present?  And of course, if we don't reach our funding target by the end then no cash will be taken; giving, in effect, a Christmas windfall of £250!

 

Steve:  I totally understand your need to prioritise and the APT-E is certainly shaping up to be a fine model.  But according to the Locomotion website the deadline for orders is 30th April 2015; if you were to back a successful Pendolino project that would still give you nearly 5 months to save for the APT-E.

 

cheers

 

Ben A.

 

*I use the term "non-essential" advisedly!

[jivebunny]

My point regarding the timing was not about allowing people to save up but more to do with the issue of asking people to part with £250 at some point between Christmas Eve and the first days of the New Year, or in the run-up to Christmas if it's now to be a 45-day campaign. In either case this has to be one of the worst possible times to ask people to hand over what is generally seen as a fair amount of money. Pushing the deadline back to either after the first payday of 2015 or to late January when funds are just a few more days away could potentially make quite a difference to the number of pledges that make the critical leap from "can't afford it" to "I'll treat myself". I would imagine those whose hobby spending requires some sort of negotiation with SWMBO won't even bother trying to get "approval" for one unit, never mind two!

As to credit cards, many people don't have one either by choice or by "status" (as the banks put it), and those who do don't necessarily abide by "I can't afford it so I'll add it to my debt".
 

The bunch of us who are abroad also have to consider the generally unfavourable sterling exchange rate. My planned pledge for two units will come in at over 630€, which is more than my monthly mortgage payment on a large house, so it's not a committment I'm taking lightly.

JB

[alibuchan]

I do understand what you are saying JB but the original plan was for this project to go live at TINGS, but due to the GWR Railcar project that was started around the same time, Ben and Mike decided to to give that one a chance and not to start this one until afterwards. By that reconing by now we should have been celebrating a successful Pendolino kickstarter project by now.

 

However, in order to keep everything at the forefront of everyone's minds with advertisements and leaflets that have been published and distributed etc the best time is to do it now.

 

I am in a similar position to you, to get my 2 sets, it is pretty much equal to my months rent. I will be one of the few people on the railway, working on Boxing Day, running a 'full' Sunday train service, for the public, to pay for these models. Not something I am taking lightly but if I want to play with my new trains, its something I have to do.

 

I also understand that some people can't get credit cards.

 

The issue with moving it back to coinside with the first payday, is people are still usually struggling because of the December payday having to stretch an extra week or 2 because it goes in before Christmas.

 

Basically, no matter what date it is run, there will always be the issue that people are having to use their money for other things. The date will always be impractical to someone.

 

Alistair

[Revolution Ben]

Hi Jive Bunny,

 

Alistair has pretty much encapsulated what I was going to say, however what I will add is that I will have another conversation with Mike and discuss the points you raise before taking a final view. 

 

We want to include as many people as possible in this project; not just to help us have the best chance of reaching our goal but just because it's exciting; if we *do* manage to get these Pendolinos made imagine being one of only 1000 (at most - probably a lot less given the number of people who've privately or publicly indicated that they will have two) people to have been behind the first RTR British Kickstarter model.  In 20 years time, when crowd-funding, 3D printing and direct dealing with China, India or somewhere back in the UK is commonplace, you can say "I was there at the very start."

 

Oh, and I think I will be working Boxing Day too (and I think New Year's Eve and New Year's Day too) to ensure I can spring for my planned pair of models!

 

cheers

 

Ben A.

[PaulCheffus]

Hi

 

Whilst I understand money is tight this project has been on the cards since August so putting money aside each month since then would go some way to mitigate the large outlay over Christmas. As Ben has pointed out there would never be a good time to launch this as someone somewhere would have other financial commitments.

 

Cheers

 

Paul

[Revolution Ben]

Hello all,

 

Interesting article in the Times today commemorating Kickstarter UK's "second birthday." 

 

In two years 675,000 people have pledged 51 million towards more than 4000 projects in two years. The average pledge is £55.80.

 

cheers

 

Ben A.

[DJM Dave]

It is with regret that I write to inform you all that unfortunately DJModels will not be the manufacturer and supplier of the mooted N gauge Pendolino project.

A third party has offered to produce 800 models for both Mr Hale and Mr Ando and as such they have agreed, at this late hour, to transfer manufacture and project management to China / Canada rather than keep it within the British Isles and China.

The production amount of 800 models is indeed a good one, and one, which would not have left DJModels with any wiggle room regarding VAT, import duty and shipping, plus bespoke packaging, spares etc and as such would not be financially viable for me over the short term despite DJModels having the ownership of the tooling thereafter, and the longevity of the hard steel tooling allowing DJM to produce this model every couple of years for many years to come.

It is a project I would dearly have loved the DJModels Ltd name to be attached to, and although I do not agree with their reasons for changing, I do understand that the smaller figure of 800 models will give the project a better chance of success.

Being an N gauge modeller myself, success can only be good for the hobby in general, and I would urge any modellers interested to support Mike and Ben in this venture to the best of their ability, as I know that these 2 can and will bring a magnificent iconic model to us all.

[Revolution Ben]

Hello all,

I'd just like to thank Dave for all the work he put in to this project, and his good grace and professionalism in the circumstances.

The N Gauge Pendolino, if we generate adequate backing, will now be produced by Rapido trains of Canada. They're becoming well known to British modellers as they are entering the OO market with a model of the iconic APT-E train - the subject of at least two lively and interesting threads here on this forum.

The APT-E was, in some ways, the forerunner of the Pendolino as the tilt technology was handed down, and for Rapido's entry into the British N gauge market, where maybe the APT-E makes a little less sense, the Pendolino is a good fit.

Rapido, and their CEO Jason Shron, are an exciting, established and well-regarded company who tend to do things a little differently, and we feel that any model produced by them has every chance of equalling the quality we would have been confident of getting from DJM.

The bottom line is that Rapido will produce the model if we can generate 800 pledges, instead of the 1,000 DJM would have needed. As Kickstarter is an all-or-nothing mechanism, Mike Hale and I feel that we have to go with the option that gives us the best chance of getting over that initial hurdle.

The Kickstarter page, with a slightly different set of rewards and goals, will be going live soon.  We will now be offering, as an extra pledge possibility, a British N Gauge first:  Models with factory-fitted sound.

 

Any questions and Mike and I are happy to answer them, and once again we would like to acknowledge the significant debt we owe to Dave in terms of inspiring this project in the first place, while looking forward to working with Jason and Rapido on what we hope will be a successful project, but of course all this is academic if we do not reach our target!!

cheers

Ben A.
 

[woodenhead]

I think this is a shrewd move, whilst we all know Dave in the UK I felt that the only way this model was going to fly was by having international appeal and for that you need a partner who is known outside the British Isles.

 

And to get the minimum unit sales down to 800 I think is amazing.

[Bomag]

I think this is a shrewd move, ..

 

And to get the minimum unit sales down to 800 I think is amazing.

 

Is it? DJM has a track record (at Dapol), OK - with the occasional issue. I was therefore going to buy two (£500) on the basis of I was unlikely to get something I as unhappy with. I have no knowledge of Rapido, a search of models brings up North American stock which look terrible (it may be that this is down to the prototypes),  I have no idea if they are good models. I may buy one but I am certainly not putting £500 into something I don't know I can trust.     

[mikeharvey22]

A bit about Rapido's British train project here. An earlier tilting train.

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/forum/248-rapido-trains/

[Roy L S]

I guess the devil will be in the detail.

 

Although way outside my modelling era, following the unfortunate failure of the GW railcar "kickstarter" project to reach target I had pretty much decided to transfer the funds I had pledged to that plus a bit more to a "short" 6 car Pendolino set to support the project and have something a bit "different.

 

I am disappointed for Dave that this change of manufacturer has been decided upon, as another reason for supporting both this and the GW Railcar for me personally was that I want to do my small part to support Dave and DJM for having the vision to encourage the crowd funding idea, something I doubt either of the other two current British N manufacturers would look at in a million years.

 

Roy

[cnw6847]

Is it? DJM has a track record (at Dapol), OK - with the occasional issue. I was therefore going to buy two (£500) on the basis of I was unlikely to get something I as unhappy with. I have no knowledge of Rapido, a search of models brings up North American stock which look terrible (it may be that this is down to the prototypes),  I have no idea if they are good models. I may buy one but I am certainly not putting £500 into something I don't know I can trust.     

Rapido trains produce some very nice models and i'm sure if they produce a Pendolino it will be to a very good standard.

[woodenhead]

So everyone gets all excited when Rapido announce an APT-E and then when they are announced as partner for the Pendolino it's all about them being an unknown.

 

One could argue the same about DJM because all that has reached production in his stable is a wagon. Before everyone jumps down my throat I am not dissing Dave just making the point that as an individual and not Dapol he doesn't yet have a back catalogue.

 

Rapido are obviously looking outside their own shores and have them enter into British N offers yet another possible producer of niche models in what I would argue is the premier scale. There's lots of producers of 4mm niche products, now we potentially have DJM, Rapido and Hornby (as Arnold) plus Dapol and Graham Farish for the mainstream.

 

It is sad for Dave as he believed he had the iconic Pendolino on his books but it is clear now that there are people out there bidding to get the business in 2mm scale which is healthy and will keep Dapol and Graham Farish on their toes and costs reasonable.

[Roy L S]

We are yet to be advised what the price will now be following transfer to Rapido just yet, nor whether "short" sets will be possible, it will be very interesting to find out.

 

Out of courtesy to Dave should this Pendolino thread not now close and be moved to Rapido?

 

Roy

[woodenhead]

Maybe we need a kickstarter section because until it gets the required commitments it's no-ones model.

[Revolution Ben]

Hello all,

 

I will try to answer some of the questions above.

 

Firstly, Mike and I have absolute confidence that both DJM and Rapido have the capability to produce an excellent model.  If you want to know more about Rapido their website is here www.rapidotrains.com and they have several APT-E threads on this forum detailing progress from product announcement to first moulds, with lots of CAD images and photos.  Links to the best bits can be found in post #1 here: http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/87114-the-official-rapido-apt-e-thread/

 

You might be surprised at how open they are - I would say that along with Dave Jones Rapido's Jason Shron is one of the best online communicators of what he and his company are all about.

 

I cannot emphasise enough that our primary goal has to be to get to the Kickstarter target - without that nothing will happen.  I appreciate that some people will feel disappointment that DJM models aren't producing this model - I share that feeling, as Dave has done a tremendous amount - but the difference between an 800 pledge level and 1000 could make the difference between us getting a Pendolino or not at all.  This, above all, was what it came down to.

 

Having said that, there are some other advantages Rapido are offering including up to ten different numbersets and DCC sound factory-fitted for £95 extra - we think this would be a first for British N.

 

Here is some more information about specifications:

 

The models will be exactly as previously specified before with directional lights, low friction drive, close coupling, wheels etc to NEM or NMRA standards as appropriate and with all vehicles  correct and accurate.  There will be the removable front panel to allow for drags.  All wheels will have pick up and power will transfer through the train, first class coaches will have working interior table lamps.

 

Pledge levels for the "standard" 9 car train are now £255, as this allows for some slightly higher specs than previously and gives us more flexibility elsewhere.

 

We have looked again at the short sets, in answer to previous requests, and listened to those who said that the short set should be sub £200 if possible.

 

So now we are looking at short sets of 5 cars (one of every different vehicle in the consist, and with two power cars) at £195, (or £290 with DCC sound in both power cars) which is on a par with the Arnold Brighton Belle.

 

Plus, we are offering a two-car add on pack for £30 so an 11-car train comes in at £285 and doesn't leave you with an unwanted extra car.  This, we hope, will offer enough variation that anyone who wants to support us can.

 

I'd also like to say that Dave himself has very graciously urged everyone who wants a Pendolino to continue to support this project because we are still in the position where not only is it unlikely that a Pendolino will be manufactured elsewhere, but also if we *can* make this fly then it opens up lots of possibilities for lots more items that we really want - and a real boost to anyone else planning a similar scheme, regardless of manufacturer.

 

Also, I believe this thread is going to be locked tomorrow, and a new thread started in the Rapido section, but mods will ensure the closing message points readers to the new topic.

 

cheers

 

Ben A.

[arran]

HI All

 

I better get one ordered for Law Junction

 

I have every confidence in Rapido to deliver an N gauge product as there own HO an N equal the best anywhere, Im sure Dave fells let down by this move but He did take projects from others as well so I suppose all fair in Love and War.

 

Regards Arran 

[Revolution Ben]

Hello all,

 

Posted on another forum was this link to Mike's blog on Rapido's website.  He is their main "N scale" modeller and it makes for fascinating reading, for anyone who wants to learn a little more about Rapido, but also about the model railway business in general.

 

He makes the point that the last decade or so has been defined by the rise of smaller companies and while I agree, I feel that if we can start to harness the power of crowd-funding, Kickstarter and the internet then the next decade could be defined by individual modellers getting together and simply commissioning what they want.

That's why I would urge anyone to really consider pledging support to our project when it goes live. I think if this one can succeed - it's a big project, after all - then anything can and the floodgates could open...

 

cheers

 

Ben A.
 

[dave_long]

Have I got this wrong or aren't the CAD drawings being done by the Pendo team and not Rapido (or Dj) so it's really just manufacturing that will be needed. Any one doubting Rapido should really stop being UK-centric they have a huge reputation for great models in N and HO. So if it's down to using a manufacturer Rapido is really a no brainer, especially if they will produce a run at 200 less pieces.

[DJM Dave]

Have I got this wrong or aren't the CAD drawings being done by the Pendo team and not Rapido (or Dj) so it's really just manufacturing that will be needed. Any one doubting Rapido should really stop being UK-centric they have a huge reputation for great models in N and HO. So if it's down to using a manufacturer Rapido is really a no brainer, especially if they will produce a run at 200 less pieces.

 

Hi Dave,

Not sure how it will work with Ben and Mike, but the drawings for the Pendo were sent out to my factory ready for cad/cam design by them for me for this project.

 

I'm pretty sure, given their track record so far, Rapido will have contacted Virgin and arranged to 3D laser scan the real thing or indeed have a duplicate set of drawings for it.

cheers

Dave

[jpendle]

Well I'm gobsmacked!!

 

I'm sorry that Dave won't be producing the model any more. But I do understand why Ben and Mike made the decision they did.

 

John P

[Andy Y]

As the Pendolino project is now being handled via Rapido the new topic can be found here in the Rapido section of RMweb - http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/92432-n-gauge-class-390-pendolino-kickstarter-with-rapido/