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20 T brake vans on the SDJR


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Stand down everybody ....in a moment of inspiration it seems that I've managed to answer my own question or as good as I'm possibly likely to get by looking in OPC Southern Wagons Pictorial.

P.79 has an arrangement drawing of these 3 vans with a suggestion of their 'possible' livery and makes the statement 'No photographs of them in SDJR service are known .....'

 

I can live with this information but if anybody else can add to this I would be very grateful as I haven't yet started the kit, although I've already built an LMS livered version. Of interest, whilst looking through some of the other threads in this section, I've found a couple of photos of potentially 2 of these vans running on the line in BR days, although the running numbers are not visible.

 

Cheers,

Ian.

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10 minutes ago, 03060 said:

Stand down everybody ....in a moment of inspiration it seems that I've managed to answer my own question or as good as I'm possibly likely to get by looking in OPC Southern Wagons Pictorial.

P.79 has an arrangement drawing of these 3 vans with a suggestion of their 'possible' livery and makes the statement 'No photographs of them in SDJR service are known .....'

 

I can live with this information but if anybody else can add to this I would be very grateful as I haven't yet started the kit, although I've already built an LMS livered version. Of interest, whilst looking through some of the other threads in this section, I've found a couple of photos of potentially 2 of these vans running on the line in BR days, although the running numbers are not visible.

 

Cheers,

Ian.

I don't know if this is one of them. Go to the Newman Family...website at http://www.newman-family-tree.net/s&d/index.html and search for 53804 (Ctrl + F)

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Yes, thanks Phil, that's the same style as the OPC drawing except for the rain strips which is one continuous one on their drawing but hey ho, incidentally that's just made me realise that I haven't put any on my LMS van ! I actually have another 2 kits available to build so I shall do one in SDJR livery and one in BR grey (although this may be a 'ducketed' version.

 

The other photos that I came across were in the Ron Toop  album. You've now given me a link to another set of photos to pour over, much appreciated.

Cheers,

Ian.

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In Essery's LMS Wagons when talking of D1659 and 1658 there is mention of the OPC 'An illustrated History of Midland Wagons Vol 2, chapter 11. ' as a source of further information, but it is not clear (to me at least) whether that related to D 1658 and -59 or just -58.

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The relevant entry in Midland wagons is-

"Two diagrams [for this brake van] do exist [] D1240 which is believed to cover lot 939 and [] D1568 which probably refers to lot 993, with D1658 in the LMS diagram book as the vacuum fitted version, lot 977."

 

The table shows:

 

Drawing number     Lot.    Qty.      Date. 

5024.                         929.     50        1919

5462.                         977.     50.       1922.     Vacuum brake fitted

                                   993.     87.       1922.     Hand brake only

 

 

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Thanks Phil and Bill,

 

I've dug out my copies of Essery's Midland and LMS wagon books to reread the sections regarding  these 'similar' styled brake vans. There is a historical photo of the van that I modelled a while ago in LMS livery, No.747, from which I can see that I need to add full length rainstrips ....and vacuum pipes ! I'm sure that I must have looked at this photo before whilst making the kit but then used a colour photo of the van in preservation from a magazine as it was easier to view on the workbench, this is why I've not put on rainstrips as they are not now present and the vac pipes are connected with other vehicles either side of it, so are not particularly obvious.

 

As a matter of interest there are at least 3 different versions of these vans represented in Ron Toop's photos from the 1950's.

 

Regards,

Ian.

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Guest Jack Benson
On 01/02/2015 at 09:25, bécasse said:

Brake vans not marked "NOT IN COMMON USE" nor "RU" were common user in the BR era. The short-distance nature (yard-to-yard or out-and-back trip) of the majority of goods train workings meant that vans tended not to migrate too far from their "home" ground but, of course, odd ones did escape and, if to a design popular with guards, might well find a permanent "home" elsewhere.

 

The ex-GWR toads were universally hated by guards from other regions because they were considered unsafe - if you have ever ridden in one you would understand why.

An exGWR toad with plough was part of the enginering train used on the SDJR, the vehicle had been modified by enclosing the guard's veranda. Some images can be found in Peter's 1950's, Vol2 162-166, picture albums including an impressive rake of Herring that I suspect had been 'ceeded' to the SDJR after they were deemed unsafe by staff when used on double track lines. Perhaps the Departmental toad was part of the 'donation' ?

 

Cheers

 

Jack

Edited by Jack Benson
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2 hours ago, Jack Benson said:

An exGWR toad with plough was part of the enginering train used on the SDJR, the vehicle had been modified by enclosing the guard's veranda. Some images can be found in Peter's 1950's, Vol2 162-166, picture albums including an impressive rake of Herring that I suspect had been 'ceeded' to the SDJR after they were deemed unsafe by staff when used on double track lines. Perhaps the Departmental toad was part of the 'donation' ?

 

Cheers

 

Jack

I believe that quite a number of ex-GW toads were converted to personnel carriers for the Civil Engineers once even the WR accepted that they represented a safety risk. Enclosing the veranda at least removed the risk of being pitched overboard.

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Guest Jack Benson
2 minutes ago, bécasse said:

I believe that quite a number of ex-GW toads were converted to personnel carriers for the Civil Engineers once even the WR accepted that they represented a safety risk. Enclosing the veranda at least removed the risk of being pitched overboard.

 

Thanks, a most logical explanation.

 

Can you shed any further light on the cascading of Herring from BR(W), was the inherent risk associated with its operating procedures the reason why they found their way to the SDJR?

 

IMG_1081.JPG.7b2a46570db442d018e4bd30e54261b1.JPG

 

Btw, sorry to go off track but images of non-revenue traffic on the SDJR are rare.

 

Cheers

 

Jack

 

 

 

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42 minutes ago, johnofwessex said:

What is the issue with GWR Brake vans compared with other designs?

The main item of contention was that the cabin was only accessed through a door at one end, whereas most other types had a door at either end, offering a better chance of escape in the event of fire or accident.

 

As for GBVs used on the S&D line, certainly in latter years, Bath Green Park's "local" van was one of the shorter 20T ex-Midland style without duckets (Bachmann r-t-r or Parkside kit). If I could remember which book the photo is in, I could possibly give the number.:huh:

 

Worth bearing in mind, too that (IIRC) trains requiring banking out of Bath had the banker coupled and the guard would have to unhitch it at the summit using a hook, from the veranda, whilst in motion. Vans with end platforms were therefore unsuitable for those duties.

 

John 

Edited by Dunsignalling
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On 16/06/2019 at 07:16, Jack Benson said:

An exGWR toad with plough was part of the enginering train used on the SDJR, the vehicle had been modified by enclosing the guard's veranda. Some images can be found in Peter's 1950's, Vol2 162-166, picture albums including an impressive rake of Herring that I suspect had been 'ceeded' to the SDJR after they were deemed unsafe by staff when used on double track lines. Perhaps the Departmental toad was part of the 'donation' ?

 

Cheers

 

Jack

The ballast plough would probably have been a Diagram AA5, purpose-built in the very late 19th Century with an enclosed verandah. There were others, without ploughs, to Diagram AA6. Though GWR 'vans were purportedly unpopular, there were examples in CCE use at Low Fell (Tyneside) into the 1990s. They generally worked with rail cranes or other on-track plant as mess vehicles.

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Guest Jack Benson

Just to clarify, was the familiar LMS Stanier 20t Brake in regular use on the SDJR during the 50-60s?

A film clip of a short goods near Shillingstone includes a large grain hopper and is tailed by a Stanier brake but this is just one example.

 

cheers

 

Jack

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The real issue with GWR toads was the design of the veranda which had both a low parapet and a low roof (and nothing to hang on to) - and the guard had to go out on to the veranda to work the brake because that is where the column was. Other companies' vans had verandas, usually but not always at both ends, where one felt safe even if the van was pitching around (which wasn't uncommon on an unfitted goods), the parapet was a good height and it was easy to hang on. I only rode on a toad once, that once was quite enough, not only would it have been quite easy to have been pitched over the parapet but one could easily have cracked one's skull on the low roof as one went.

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21 hours ago, Dunsignalling said:

 

 

Worth bearing in mind, too that (IIRC) trains requiring banking out of Bath had the banker coupled and the guard would have to unhitch it at the summit using a hook, from the veranda, whilst in motion. Vans with end platforms were therefore unsuitable for those duties.

 

 

As far as I can tell from reading the various WTT Appendices the banker was NOT coupled to Down trains out of Bath, probably as this avoided the train engine having to stop inside Combe Down tunnel while any uncoupling took place!

 

Your recollection of the 'hook' probably relates to Masbury summit, as the banker WAS coupled on at Radstock to Down trains, but the local instructions required it to be uncoupled 'on the fly' once the train had passed Binegar Down Distant, but not yet reached the station, in case of any problems when 'catching' the bank engine staff at Binegar.

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15 hours ago, RailWest said:

As far as I can tell from reading the various WTT Appendices the banker was NOT coupled to Down trains out of Bath, probably as this avoided the train engine having to stop inside Combe Down tunnel while any uncoupling took place!

It would also have allowed the banking loco to drop back down the bank if any emergency occurred while the train was in the tunnel. Having once been on a passenger train (hauled by an ailing Class 4 standard tank) which took all of 15 minutes to clear the tunnel, I can vouch personally for the fact that it didn't take much for conditions within the tunnel to become very foul indeed.

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Just to add to the possibilities I've just noticed, whilst watching John Betjamin's "Lets Imagine" for the umpteenth time, that there is a left handed ducketed version of the exSouthern type brake van in unfitted grey on one of the goods trains as it leaves Highbridge heading for the Wharf, with reference to Coombe Martin's post (see p.1) the Bachmann model is also Ok.

 

Regards,

Ian.

Edited by 03060
Correction.
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