Heljan planning a 1361 too

[Wild Boar Fell]

According to the latest Model Rail, Heljan are planning a 1361 to follow their planned 1366 covering liveries from Works Grey to Black Late Crest.

No other details other than liveries and numbers have been given, but surprising given that Kernow have just announced one as well. I would imagine the Heljan one will be dropped soonish.

Though I best mention it.

Regards,

Wild Boar Fell

[Linners]

Interesting, but not all together unexpected considering their announcement to cover the 1366 Pannier tank. However, AS WBF suggests, they will probably drop it now that Kernow and DJM are on the case and working to produce the 1361 Saddle tank (and are well advanced in the design/production process). Part of me is disappointed that Chris and DJM were unable to get a 1366 to market first, as these are amongst my favourite of the pannier tank designs, and based on previous releases (the Beattie Well tank is superb, and I have no doubt that the O2 will maintain the high standrads that have been set) it would have been a gem, as well as offering them opportunity to extend production into the 1361 prototype too. More over, Kernow and DJM are very good at keeping the customer base informed and up to date, where as Heljan tend to play their cards closer to their chests - I'm not sure how far along the 1366 design and production is and when we can expect it.

 

Linners

[Dunsignalling]

As the prototype 1366 was just a modernised version of the 1361, it was always likely that Heljan would eventually produce models of both to maximise the return from the chassis tooling.

 

Much will depend on how far along their 1366 is but, under the circumstances, wouldn't they have just kept quiet about the 1361 if they weren't already committed to it?

 

John

Edited August 29, 2014 by Dunsignalling

[locoholic]

I suppose it's just foolish to think that Dave Jones and Heljan could co-operate, thus reducing tooling costs, so that us modellers could pay a little less for the models. Maybe they might sell a few more as a result?

[S.A.C Martin]

Why is it that Heljan - the larger model railway company - with a model sharing many components already in development - are assumed to be dropping their model…against the backdrop of a much, much smaller entity and a model railway shop announcing the same prototype?

 

With the greatest of respect to DJ Models and Kernow, I cannot believe people actually believe Heljan would drop their plans on the basis of a DJ Models - or anyone else for that matter - announcement?

[JSpencer]

Heljan most probably observe the 2 biggest players to avoid duplicating anything they do.

 

But we already have one example of them ignoring a smaller players plans and going ahead with their own.

 

Remember Dapol announced DP2 first, a few months before Heljan announced theirs. Dapol then dropped theirs with a big maybe for the future.... (Though I personally doubt they will do DP2 now, at least not within 10years anyway).

 

Dapol were slow to release new models anyway. But this will pose some interesting questions. I assume both players will not produce the tank loco until they have a healthy order book. The Kernow one has taken an advance here, the prototype is little know so most people wanting one will want the best model of the two.

The only thing is the Heljan will be a general release, how confident will model shops feel to sell them before placing orders? That is what will determine whether or not the Heljan will be made.

 

I would say the odds are currently in Kernow's favour to bring theirs out first, but Heljan can move quickly when it suits them.

[S.A.C Martin]

Could you please explain how the odds are currently in Kernows favour? Surely with development of an almost identical (mechanically anyway) locomotive class already on the drawing board, surely the odds are with Heljan?

 

I am all for supporting our cottage industries and home grown talent but this appears to me to be pretty open and shut in favour of the Danes?

[Captain Kernow]

Could you please explain how the odds are currently in Kernows favour? Surely with development of an almost identical (mechanically anyway) locomotive class already on the drawing board, surely the odds are with Heljan?

 

I am all for supporting our cottage industries and home grown talent but this appears to me to be pretty open and shut in favour of the Danes?

I actually think that the reputation of Kernow Model Centre and Dave Jones will carry the day here, I wouldn't underestimate them for a moment. I don't think that they will lose out financially with their 1361. Heljan may well go ahead and produce theirs, and one would not wish to deny them financial success either, but I don't think that the Kernow/DJM one will be somehow beaten back into the undergrowth by the fact that Heljan have now announced one, never to see the light of day.

 

Plus, the discerning within the hobby will know where to direct their money.

[locoholic]

Of course, Hornby could have done Railroad versions of both 1361 and 1366 types a couple of years ago, using the chassis from the Electrotren 0-6-0 tank engine, but that would have been far too design clever.

 

i'm getting a bit cynical about these sporadic bouts of 4mm RTR claim-staking, which are generally followed by years and years of waiting. Anyone for a 3-car Hampshire DEMU, for instance? Or even a 2-car BR blue one?

 

In fact, I shall use this opportunity to announce the formation of my own company, Brigadoon Models, and hereby stake my claim to the Fell Diesel, GT3 and a Webb Greater Britain 2-2-2-2 compound, with separate DCC motors so that the driving wheels can rotate in opposite directions simultaneously.

[Captain Kernow]

 

In fact, I shall use this opportunity to announce the formation of my own company, Brigadoon Models, and hereby stake my claim to the Fell Diesel, GT3 and a Webb Greater Britain 2-2-2-2 compound, with separate DCC motors so that the driving wheels can rotate in opposite directions simultaneously.

Plus the Liskeard and Central Cornwall Railway 0-2-4 'Sausage' class loco or some such rhubarb that I was going on about a while ago...

[S.A.C Martin]

I actually think that the reputation of Kernow Model Centre and Dave Jones will carry the day here, I wouldn't underestimate them for a moment. I don't think that they will lose out financially with their 1361. Heljan may well go ahead and produce theirs, and one would not wish to deny them financial success either, but I don't think that the Kernow/DJM one will be somehow beaten back into the undergrowth by the fact that Heljan have now announced one, never to see the light of day.

 

Plus, the discerning within the hobby will know where to direct their money.

 

I know the tide of populist opinion is personally (and directly) against me, so I'll make this my last post in this topic.

 

The discerning within the hobby will know where to direct their money? Yes, I would hope they would CK, but would you put your money behind a company as yet to produce an actual model, or one which releases new models to critical acclaim most of the time, year on year?

 

Are you seriously suggesting that discerning, logically minded modellers wouldn't put their money behind tried and tested Heljan - the company with probably the best performing D&E models in the market place? Granted, currently untried with British outline steam (but then their forthcoming Gresley O2 is looking an absolute cracker in the pre-production stage).

 

Call me a cynic but I equate success and reputation with success and reputation earned.

[Captain Kernow]

I know the tide of populist opinion is personally (and directly) against me, so I'll make this my last post in this topic.

 

Nothing personal stated or implied in my post.

[Captain Kernow]

The discerning within the hobby will know where to direct their money? Yes, I would hope they would CK, but would you put your money behind a company as yet to produce an actual model, or one which releases new models to critical acclaim most of the time, year on year?

 

I would most certainly put my money towards Kernow and DJM, no question.

 

I would also challenge your view on Heljan releasing new models 'to critical acclaim year on year' - whilst I do own a good number of Heljan diesels, and the Hymek is a paragon of virtue in that respect, they have also had their share of lemons, most of the criticism of which I have actually read about on this very forum, from people I respect...

[Steffi_C]

Granted, currently untried with British outline steam (but then their forthcoming Gresley O2 is looking an absolute cracker in the pre-production stage).

 

Call me a cynic but I equate success and reputation with success and reputation earned.

 

Don't forget the Garratt.

[Captain Kernow]

Are you seriously suggesting that discerning, logically minded modellers wouldn't put their money behind tried and tested Heljan - absolutely, that's exactly what I'm saying in the case of the little GWR tank loco

 

 

the company with probably the best performing D&E models in the market place? Granted, currently untried with British outline steam (but then their forthcoming Gresley O2 is looking an absolute cracker in the pre-production stage).

 

 

The 02 may well look good in the pre-production stage, but I am distinctly underwhelmed by the Hattons Garratt.

 

Sorry, I'm not trying to make a point here by separate posts, previously when I've done it like this the software/site seems to have conveniently combined them..

[Ozexpatriate]

Plus the Liskeard and Central Cornwall Railway 0-2-4 'Sausage' class loco or some such rhubarb that I was going on about a while ago...

I'd love my for my sketches there to get this treatment. It would be most amusing.

 

I wonder if Mr. TTAMTWASOOC is up for it?

Edited August 29, 2014 by Ozexpatriate

[Ozexpatriate]

Sorry, I'm not trying to make a point here by separate posts, previously when I've done it like this the software/site seems to have conveniently combined them..

Only when they're the last two posts in a thread - only it doesn't always work that way, apparently

Edited August 29, 2014 by Ozexpatriate

[Ozexpatriate]

Could you please explain how the odds are currently in Kernows favour? Surely with development of an almost identical (mechanically anyway) locomotive class already on the drawing board, surely the odds are with Heljan?

Simon, I'd say it's the correlation of several factors not limited to the following:

 

1. When is either model likely arrive?

 

Which in part has to be a function of how much research and development work has been done to date and confidence created by communication by the supplier. Kernow is well ahead there with very* clearly communicated plans of what they intend.

 

2. Track record, including:

( a ) delivery of anything  - your point regarding DJModels, which I agree is reasonable

( b ) timely delivery - not necessarily a strong point for Heljan

 

Have Heljan produced a single illustration of progress on the L&B Manning-Wardle? It was announced more than 12 months ago and it's not yet clear according to this thread even what liveries they plan let alone CADs or estimated completion. (I have seen ordering information for presumed L&B liveries, but not SR, but I can't tell for sure).

 

Heljan's marketing communication is not effective. It does not build confidence. There's nothing I can find of any of these on their website.

 

* EDIT: well, mostly clearly, but any confusion is sorted out to my satisfaction.

Edited August 29, 2014 by Ozexpatriate

[Ian Hargrave]

Could you please explain how the odds are currently in Kernows favour? Surely with development of an almost identical (mechanically anyway) locomotive class already on the drawing board, surely the odds are with Heljan?

I am all for supporting our cottage industries and home grown talent but this appears to me to be pretty open and shut in favour of the Danes?

What on earth makes you think that ...in global terms...Heljan itself does not equate to what you unfortunately term a "cottage industry"?

You are skating on thin ice here...unless of course you are in possession of information that the rest of us are not party to.

 

Be very careful of making assertions that you cannot substantiate.

In any case,much as most of us applaud Heljan's influence in the UK market,is it not essential that we support UK generated products from Kernow and DJM ?.We would all be the poorer without both of them...and,right now,their joint initiatives are generating creativity and genuine sparkle into our world.

[Ozexpatriate]

What on earth makes you think that ...in global terms...Heljan itself does not equate to what you unfortunately term a "cottage industry"?

Ian, I presumed that Simon alludes to Kernow/DJModels as the "cottage industry" and not Heljan,

 

I don't think he meant it pejoratively.

Edited August 29, 2014 by Ozexpatriate

[S.A.C Martin]

What on earth makes you think that ...in global terms...Heljan itself does not equate to what you unfortunately term a "cottage industry"?

You are skating on thin ice here...unless of course you are in possession of information that the rest of us are not party to.

 

Be very careful of making assertions that you cannot substantiate.

In any case,much as most of us applaud Heljan's influence in the UK market,is it not essential that we support UK generated products from Kernow and DJM ?.We would all be the poorer without both of them...and,right now,their joint initiatives are generating creativity and genuine sparkle into our world.

 

Sorry Ian, I am afraid you have completely misread and misrepresented my view. In no way was I describing Heljan as a cottage industry.

 

In any event, I do not think my assertion (that Heljan have made lots of acclaimed models over the years and DJ models output is zero at present is something not substantiated by fact?

 

Another forum member has put it to me by PM that Kernow's reputation precedes itself and I would happily agree on that point, with the caveat that it has previously worked alongside several large companies to produce their wares.

 

(On a side note, I would hope it would be for the forum's moderators to decide if I were "skating on thin ice", thank you).

[JSpencer]

I will justify my confidence with Kernow as follows:

 

1) projects that they had with Dapol fell to a standstill, I agree no news for years (whose fault that was, I will not state an opinion as both parties already said their's)

2) projects they have with Bachmann were running smoothly until recent times, due to now known problems at Bachmann

3) Projects they have with DJ Models, have moved a long in leaps and bounds. We saw cad draings then engineering prototypes in a short time for the O2. OK no RTR model yet... and I agree that the DJ Models is not yet "battle proven".

 

However based on the speed of progress with DJ Models, I predict a lead time of 18 to 24 months at their current rates. We also know from the O2 model, the amount of effort gone in to getting individual détails correct for class members. I cannot think of a case where Heljan did this, as they seem to keep to just a couple of main variants.

 

Heljan's lead times seem more like 24 to 36 months at the moment, but they have previously been much faster. Sometimes they are spot on with the model, sometimes they miss.

 

It is nearly a year since the 1366 was annouced, yet no price nor liveries. The 1361 if annouced at the next Warley show may well be in the same boat. Perhaps they will get theirs done for less than £100, but will they do the detailed variants? (unlikely I think).

 

This model is not P2, wanted by 1000s, many of whom may accept simpler détails. This is a very niche loco that will be known mainly by purists/historical people - they will doubtless want the best model possible and I therefore think the odds are currently with DJ models and Kernow. That could change IF a major error is made by Kernow or Heljan shock us with a better/cheaper/quickly available product - but I personally doubt it will happen. Thus the reasoning of my odds in Kernow's favour....

[Stevelewis]

I know the tide of populist opinion is personally (and directly) against me, so I'll make this my last post in this topic.

 

The discerning within the hobby will know where to direct their money? Yes, I would hope they would CK, but would you put your money behind a company as yet to produce an actual model, or one which releases new models to critical acclaim most of the time, year on year?

 

Are you seriously suggesting that discerning, logically minded modellers wouldn't put their money behind tried and tested Heljan - the company with probably the best performing D&E models in the market place? Granted, currently untried with British outline steam (but then their forthcoming Gresley O2 is looking an absolute cracker in the pre-production stage).

 

Call me a cynic but I equate success and reputation with success and reputation earned.

Would  just  like  to  make  readers  aware  that  Heljan'S  Continental  outlline  STEAM locos  are  brilliant  ranking  with  the  best of  the  Continental outline manufacturers,  although  quite  expensive, but  you  do  get  what  you  pay  for!

[The Stationmaster]

Could you please explain how the odds are currently in Kernows favour? Surely with development of an almost identical (mechanically anyway) locomotive class already on the drawing board, surely the odds are with Heljan?

 

I am all for supporting our cottage industries and home grown talent but this appears to me to be pretty open and shut in favour of the Danes?

I wonder if they've done all the prototype research on the 1361 which I have - their announcement of the various 1366 versions they intend to offer suggests their research there was nowhere near as thorough as my (regrettably wasted) research of that class and I know for a fact that unlike Kernow they haven't been anywhere near the sole surviving member of the 1361 class nor will they have seen the detail of various components which would be rather useful to have for accurate toolmaking.

 

It might well be logical for them to do a 1361 if they are making a 1366 - after all there are considerable chassis similarities albeit some rather obvious detail differences (the reproduction of which would depend on the chassis/footplate split of course but thus far they clearly haven't done the detailed prototype research and if they want access to mine they'd better start saving up.

[Arthur]

Another forum member has put it to me by PM that Kernow's reputation precedes itself and I would happily agree on that point, with the caveat that it has previously worked alongside several large companies to produce their wares.

 

 

Which might suggest that Kernow have the experience and ability to choose a partner who will deliver a successful product. They certainly have more experience of actually dealing with DJM than any of us do.