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Heljan GWR 1366 0-6-0 Pannier Tank


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i've took the plunge and ordered one from gaugemaster, reduced to £79. it arrived today and i have to say im in love. its a stunning loco, weighs a ton and is soo smooth. granted before i ran it i checked the axles and they where tight so i loosened the keep plate as described above. it's now ran in, i have just bought a stay alive and zimo decoder from youchoos (bought the same for my Hornby terrier and they work great in fact transformed it).

 

my only question, how do i get into the cab because i think that's where the stay alive will have to go.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Hi,

I’ve got a couple of “big” projects I really should be getting on with but  as shows are unlikely any time soon found it difficult to get motivated. Instead I’ve been catching up with some wildly assorted unfinished projects. There is a tenuous link between this one and the recently completed Class 74 in that they ran over the same bit of track a dozen or so years apart. I justify having one as i saw them pretty much daily in the early 60’s, sometimes at very close quarters,  and apparently had a cab ride sometime in the 50’s courtesy of my dad who was firing it at the time though I have little recollection of that. Was probably told to stand at the back of the cab and not to touch anything!

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Mine was one of the discounted ones complete with loose dome and dodgy cab handrail. With the dome secured I checked the axle tightness which needed a bit of adjustment then ran it in on a circle of track so at least knew it was OK mechanically before invalidating the guarantee.  This thread has covered many aspects of the model so if I’m simply repeating something already mentioned apologies.  Mine was GWR green and I needed it BR Black but there was some work to do before that could be changed.

 First up was the cab handrail which was either badly installed or damaged somehow. They are commendably scale but fell apart when I tried to sort it and resisted any attempts to repair. I replaced with Gibson knobs and wire which matched the originals well.  Took the cab off to check the DCC setup and see about installing a crew. The cab floor being glued in meant taking a deep breath and start digging. It took a bit of effort to get out but it did. Looking at the design it’s clearly important in keeping the separate bunker and cab mouldings in the right place so with the floor  out  take care with the cab/bunker assembly. I found the floor could be clipped back in without having to re-glue it which was useful.  Also dug the coal out the bunker which was only held in by a bit of double sided tape. Did my best to shave off the moulded numberplates and discovered the cab is painted clear plastic which accounts for the commendable glazing. I could, and probably should, have removed more but my experience of glazing plastic is that it’s less forgiving.1366-2.jpg.b95840ca548ee6822911f43ad7da3559.jpg

The buffers are a let down though Heljan are not alone in this area. If anyone can say what size they should be I’d love to know as they look big compared to those on my DJH model. Perhaps they use a stock “one size fits all” for a number of their models. Whatever they had to go though in the end I bodged them rather than have to remove the backplate from the cast footplate. I’m definitely in the accurate static camp when it comes to buffers so cut the retaining pin and took the heads out. The problem, apart from sticking out too far is the shank is undersized. The heads also suffer from prominent ejector pins on the back though these easily file off. Digging through my box of scrap bits looking for a possible solution happened across a short length of shrink wrap which fitted nicely over the shank and gave a better fit so that’s the way I went. Another possible solution might be to replace whole buffer with Bachmann’s sprung round ones which while lacking the footstep, easily rectified with a bit of plastic card, might be a simple replacement job. Heljan thoughtfully supply a bell but for tramway use an additional handrail and footstep were added for the shunter to ride on just in front of the RH cylinder. I’ve added both of these though the footstep is more of a representation the accurate reproduction.1366-3.jpg.0c0ac967d3ede8ebe11d1f816cc1c1f2.jpg

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With a crew figure in the cab and the glazing and chassis  masked up  a coat of black and in due course Totem and numberplates added. The latter I’m not that happy with frankly. I used a set that came with the DJH kit. They appear to be oversized and because of the remains of the moulded on plate sit quite proud which is noticeable from some angles. I could have nicked the set  off the DJH model which came from CGW models ages ago and swopped them and might well do that though there are detail differences between 67 and 68 or might try some Railtec 3d decals. Anyone got any experience of these?  Then the weathering using Martyn Welch’s time honoured mix of Humbrol’s Gunmetal and Leather plus a modicum of washes and powders.  His “Art of Weathering” book is nearly three decades old and in spite of developments in methods and materials I still find it useful.  Though rather sparse on the diesel side it, unlike some publications I can think of,  explains how weathering occurs as well as how to reproduce it. If you’ve never looked at a copy do yourself a favour.  All that remained was to add “real” coal, smashed up barbecue charcoal actually, the provided lamps, possibly a bit overscale, and the obligatory bucket.

Heljan’s effort may have issues but I think it captures the character of the loco well and a nice reminder of when they were a common sight for me.

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With typical Tramway load in tow!

 

Cheers

Stu

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  • 2 months later...

Do these have coreless motors? I'm trying to decide between a 1366, 64xx or 8750 and this could be a deciding factor; I am non-DCC and I fear my controllers (HM2000 and Hornby's old train set one) would damage/destroy a coreless motor so would avoid those.

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31 minutes ago, Rhydgaled said:

Do these have coreless motors? I'm trying to decide between a 1366, 64xx or 8750 and this could be a deciding factor; I am non-DCC and I fear my controllers (HM2000 and Hornby's old train set one) would damage/destroy a coreless motor so would avoid those.

 

I can tell you that my Heljan 1366 runs quite happily when powered by an H&M Walkabout controller or a Hornby trainset controller.

 

John Isherwood.

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On 01/09/2020 at 17:24, cctransuk said:

 

I can tell you that my Heljan 1366 runs quite happily when powered by an H&M Walkabout controller or a Hornby trainset controller.

 

John Isherwood.

 

Thanks for the reply; however I doubt my HM2000 is the same thing as your 'H&M Walkabout' controller and both the HM2000 and the Hornby R965 (which I think are the Hornby train set controllers I have - they certainly look like that) are listed as feedback controllers here. From reading the coreless motor threads I've found (which I struggle to understand if I'm honest), it seems that there's a few things that can kill a coreless motor, one being feedback controllers  (depending on the width of the pulses said feedback controllers produce) and another being stalling the motor. It just sounds a bit risky to use coreless motors, unless a modern DCC chip is used (and I'm not sure if that would address the stalling issue - but then I'm not using DCC anyway so that doesn't matter to me).

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On 01/09/2020 at 16:50, Rhydgaled said:

Do these have coreless motors? I'm trying to decide between a 1366, 64xx or 8750 and this could be a deciding factor; I am non-DCC and I fear my controllers (HM2000 and Hornby's old train set one) would damage/destroy a coreless motor so would avoid those.

Yes, coreless 
 

Edited by Mel_H
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On 01/06/2020 at 21:13, jonnyuk said:

i've took the plunge and ordered one from gaugemaster, reduced to £79. it arrived today and i have to say im in love. its a stunning loco, weighs a ton and is soo smooth. granted before i ran it i checked the axles and they where tight so i loosened the keep plate as described above. it's now ran in, i have just bought a stay alive and zimo decoder from youchoos (bought the same for my Hornby terrier and they work great in fact transformed it).

 

my only question, how do i get into the cab because i think that's where the stay alive will have to go.

Access guide here

 

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Had an interesting afternoon with a BR black example which resulted in a complete strip down as it had multiple issues. It was obtained secondhand but stopped working. 
 

Then, orange smoke appeared!

 

Removing the cab revealed a slightly fried decoder. Popping it back on the track was spectacular 

 

A previous owner had removed the DCC plug and hard-wired a decoder

 

With the decoder removed, it still didn’t work
 

Opening it up ( a challenging in itself) revealed that the heat shrink on the black terminal was slightly too short, causing an occasional short to the chassis block. 
 

Repairs, an extra piece of packing to hold the motor firmly and a new decoder and it’s back to full health!

 

https://youtu.be/MXsthvRNMeU

 

 

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D08A4BA9-04E0-40E5-B010-69E59EB11EB5.jpeg

Edited by Mel_H
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On 13/06/2020 at 16:45, lapford34102 said:

Then the weathering using Martyn Welch’s time honoured mix of Humbrol’s Gunmetal and Leather plus a modicum of washes and powders

Hi Stu,

You mention "Then the weathering using Martyn Welch’s time honoured mix of Humbrol’s Gunmetal and Leather plus a modicum of washes and powders".  Is this specifically relating to the wheels/rods?  I'll have a look for the book, but in the meantime it would be great to receive a little clarification on that particular pearl of wisdom.   

 

Also... I'm looking to pop some crew into my one of these.  Did you find an easier way than trying to fit them through the door aperture and holding in place while the glue dries in  a hopefully convincing position?  I couldn't quite tell if the cab roof comes off or something. 

 

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15 hours ago, MoonMonkey said:

You mention "Then the weathering using Martyn Welch’s time honoured mix of Humbrol’s Gunmetal and Leather ............................................. I couldn't quite tell if the cab roof comes off or something. 

 

Hi MoonMonkey,

I'll do my best but June seems a lifetime ago.

The cab comes of in one bit to fit the decoder but is in 3 pieces; cab front,sides and roof, the bunker and floor. The front/bunker join is in line with bunker top. Being daft I dug the floor out. Mine looked to be "spot welded" in with glue and came out with a little presuasion (!). There are a couple of tabs on the floor, obvious when you look, that seem important at keeping front and back together. With the floor out things start looking a bit wobbly but fine with care. Crew in then reassembled though I didn't glue the floor back in and it seems fine.

 

As for the weathering hardly a pearl of wisdom, in fact I should've checked before tapping away. No idiot like a etc etc ! It's  2 parts Metalcote Gunmetal (should have stressed the Metalcote originally) 1 part matt Tarmac  and 1 part matt leather  for the body.  The leather can be varied a bit. I've also used a dark earth which is probably similar to a tarmac/leather mix. Apply as much or as little as needed. Even a light dusting is effective in "killing" the factory finish. I don't know if you've used Metalcote before but when dry you can buff then to give a metallic shine. For con rods, etc he uses Metalcote steel and gloss tan. Personally I've found this rather harder so maybe need more practice.

Have you had a look at his website  https://www.martynwelch.com/

Anything more please ask or PM but hope this helps rather than hinders :-) Have a play on something unimportant and see how it goes. Weathering is an art and people develop their own styles and preferences. There's lots of different techniques, materials, effects etc but no one right answer.

Cheers

Stu

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On 12/09/2020 at 21:29, Mel_H said:

Yes, coreless 
 

Thanks, I had better not risk it with my old feedback controllers then. That will make making a decision easier since it's now a clear choice between Bachmann's 8750 in lined black or waiting for them to do a 64xx in some form of GWR green with a brass safety valve cover.

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If by HM 2000 controller you mean this I don't think it's a feedback controller. Never seen it on any list saying avoid.

 

https://www.Hornby.com/uk-en/hm2000-power-controller.html

 

If the R965 is this one I would be a bit more hesitant using it. But I don't think it would cause any damage. 

 

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Hornby-R965-Controller-Systems-Control/dp/B0000AFQ3E

 

I don't think train set controllers have been feedback for the last thirty odd years. The Chinese made ones certainly aren't feedback.

 

 

 

 

Jason

Edited by Steamport Southport
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On 13/09/2020 at 14:16, lapford34102 said:

 

Hi MoonMonkey,

I'll do my best but June seems a lifetime ago.

The cab comes of in one bit to fit the decoder but is in 3 pieces; cab front,sides and roof, the bunker and floor. The front/bunker join is in line with bunker top. Being daft I dug the floor out. Mine looked to be "spot welded" in with glue and came out with a little presuasion (!). There are a couple of tabs on the floor, obvious when you look, that seem important at keeping front and back together. With the floor out things start looking a bit wobbly but fine with care. Crew in then reassembled though I didn't glue the floor back in and it seems fine.

 

As for the weathering hardly a pearl of wisdom, in fact I should've checked before tapping away. No idiot like a etc etc ! It's  2 parts Metalcote Gunmetal (should have stressed the Metalcote originally) 1 part matt Tarmac  and 1 part matt leather  for the body.  The leather can be varied a bit. I've also used a dark earth which is probably similar to a tarmac/leather mix. Apply as much or as little as needed. Even a light dusting is effective in "killing" the factory finish. I don't know if you've used Metalcote before but when dry you can buff then to give a metallic shine. For con rods, etc he uses Metalcote steel and gloss tan. Personally I've found this rather harder so maybe need more practice.

Have you had a look at his website  https://www.martynwelch.com/

Anything more please ask or PM but hope this helps rather than hinders :-) Have a play on something unimportant and see how it goes. Weathering is an art and people develop their own styles and preferences. There's lots of different techniques, materials, effects etc but no one right answer.

Cheers

Stu

Hi Stu, thanks on both counts... I'll look at giving it a go!

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On 14/09/2020 at 15:26, Steamport Southport said:

If by HM 2000 controller you mean this I don't think it's a feedback controller. Never seen it on any list saying avoid.

 

https://www.Hornby.com/uk-en/hm2000-power-controller.html

 

If the R965 is this one I would be a bit more hesitant using it. But I don't think it would cause any damage. 

 

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Hornby-R965-Controller-Systems-Control/dp/B0000AFQ3E

 

I don't think train set controllers have been feedback for the last thirty odd years. The Chinese made ones certainly aren't feedback.

 

Jason

 

Both are listed as feedback on the page I linked to earlier:

On 08/09/2020 at 14:10, Rhydgaled said:

both the HM2000 and the Hornby R965 (which I think are the Hornby train set controllers I have - they certainly look like that) are listed as feedback controllers here.

 

The relevant sections of that article read as follows:

The Hornby R965 controller: "is a feedback type that uses a thyristor (or SCR) as an electronic element switching a rectified but unfiltered source of dc, at line frequency."

The HM2000 controller: "It is clear from observing the output waveforms below that it is a thyristor-feedback design, like the Hornby basic R965 or Gaugemaster feedback designs." and "It exhibits some of the heating characteristic of a PWM design. It has a modest degree of feedback"

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I'm getting confused now, re. controllers. For an electrical know-nothing, can someone confirm if my H&M Clipper has the potential to damage modern motors or not ( I quite like the high\low resistance switch, which does increase controllability of some locos), I have read conflicting advice in the past but have taken the stick my fingers in my ears route and kept hold of it, especially as I am still to build a layout and just use it to test new locos briefly. As a potential layout is becoming closer to reality I'm a bit concerned as to what it may do to modern motors, and how do I find out if my current small collection have coreless motors anyway? ( Hornby J15, Heljan H&M railcar, Model Rail J70, Hornby Bagnall diesel). If the Clipper has motor harming potential, what is a recommended non DCC controller anyway, and will it give the same level of control as the Clipper?

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2 hours ago, Rhydgaled said:

 

Both are listed as feedback on the page I linked to earlier:

 

The relevant sections of that article read as follows:

The Hornby R965 controller: "is a feedback type that uses a thyristor (or SCR) as an electronic element switching a rectified but unfiltered source of dc, at line frequency."

The HM2000 controller: "It is clear from observing the output waveforms below that it is a thyristor-feedback design, like the Hornby basic R965 or Gaugemaster feedback designs." and "It exhibits some of the heating characteristic of a PWM design. It has a modest degree of feedback"

 

I saw the website. Didn't understand a word. Too many old fashioned words from the 1960s.

 

 

BTW isn't that pulse rather than feedback. I though that feedback sent a large spike when connectivity drops. In a similar manner to track cleaners it is that which can damage the motors.

 

If those HM2000 controllers were damaging motors I doubt Hornby would still be selling them. Especially without a warning. The Gaugemaster feedback controllers have a warning.

 

 

Jason

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On 15/09/2020 at 09:34, No Decorum said:

I don’t know much about electronics, but the description of https://www.Hornby.com/uk-en/hm2000-power-controller.html states, “Power output is 2 amps with compensation to regularise speed under varying conditions of load.“ Could it do that without feedback?

 

Possibly a mild form of it. It does say "pulsed". But I thought Feedback was a higher voltage spike like that used by track cleaners.

 

I feel that if that controller was going to be damaging motors then I would expect there to be a warning. I've not seen any complaints that a HM2000 has damaged models. I would have thought there would be loads of them considering the amount they have sold over the last few years.

 

I just think there are too many scare stories about coreless motors. I think you would be fine with one of those. Just don't use old trainset controllers or ones clearly marked feedback.

 

The instructions are here and don't have any warnings. Except for the usual safety warnings.

 

https://www.Hornby.com/us-en/downloads/view/index/cat/14/

 

 

If in doubt don't use. I personally wouldn't have any qualms using one of them and I have quite a few coreless motors.

 

 

 

Jason

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