Hornby king

[The Stationmaster]

Sorry to raise this so belatedly but I recently came across my platform ticket which enabled me to view KGV at Kensington Olympia during her Return to Steam runs during October 1971.

 

I am attaching a copy and from the photo it will be observed that, apart from the tapered buffers, the loco is in its final condition (including the later pattern double chimney) yet the tender bears the cycling lion emblem. The same photo is reproduced in  G.C. Wood's "6000 King George V a chronology" published by the 6000 Locomotive Association in May 1972. In that publication the photo is credited to B.R. Western Region and is dated January 1957.

 

Said photo would appear to indicate that KGV did indeed run in her final form (apart from the tapered buffers) with the  earlier B.R. emblem although presumably for a short time. However as the photo appears to be an official B.R. portrait I suppose it is possible that the tender was paired with the loco for photographic purposes only.

 

Views anyone?

 

Scan 19.jpeg

 

KGV ran in its final BR years with a tender bearing the final emblem - from at least 1959, and probably earlier but that is the earliest reliably dated photo I can find with a very quick search.  The early emblem was applied to the tender during its time at Bulmers and the engine ran with it on the tender on its 'Return To Steam' in October 1971 and subsequentlyu

 

In BR days several changes seem to be reliably dated while others are not known but can probably be reasonably surmised.  6000 was given a double chimney in December 1956 according to one source (presumed reliable as elsewhere a photo dated 1955 shows it ex-works with a single chimney).  Assuming (quite reasonably) that the engine was given a newly outshopped tender in December 1956 that would indeed have carried the earlier emblem and it would have been with the engine for, probably, no more that about 18-20 months because at next shopping it would have received a tender with the later emblem which was introduced in early spring 1957.  The 1955 photo shows the engine with parallel buffer housings and the photo used on the ticket also appears on the Rail UK site and also shows the engine with parallel buffer housings.

 

What cannot be answered from the photos I have been able to find so far is when the front end was renewed?  Logically this was probably done when the double chimney was fitted but it needs a reliably dated photo to confirm that one way or another. as various details would have changed at that time or been changed later to the condition they were in by 1959.  What we need is a reliably dated photo of the front end and right hand side front end taken during the period when it was in traffic with an early emblem tender to answer that one way or the other

[Vacuum]

KGV ran in its final BR years with a tender bearing the final emblem - from at least 1959, and probably earlier but that is the earliest reliably dated photo I can find with a very quick search.  The early emblem was applied to the tender during its time at Bulmers and the engine ran with it on the tender on its 'Return To Steam' in October 1971 and subsequentlyu

 

In BR days several changes seem to be reliably dated while others are not known but can probably be reasonably surmised.  6000 was given a double chimney in December 1956 according to one source (presumed reliable as elsewhere a photo dated 1955 shows it ex-works with a single chimney).  Assuming (quite reasonably) that the engine was given a newly outshopped tender in December 1956 that would indeed have carried the earlier emblem and it would have been with the engine for, probably, no more that about 18-20 months because at next shopping it would have received a tender with the later emblem which was introduced in early spring 1957.  The 1955 photo shows the engine with parallel buffer housings and the photo used on the ticket also appears on the Rail UK site and also shows the engine with parallel buffer housings.

 

What cannot be answered from the photos I have been able to find so far is when the front end was renewed?  Logically this was probably done when the double chimney was fitted but it needs a reliably dated photo to confirm that one way or another. as various details would have changed at that time or been changed later to the condition they were in by 1959.  What we need is a reliably dated photo of the front end and right hand side front end taken during the period when it was in traffic with an early emblem tender to answer that one way or the other

 

 

 

Fitting of the parallel buffers to the Kings did not commence until 1959 according to the Holden and Leech book "Portraits of Kings" and indeed there is a photo of 6000 (with later B.R. crest) in that book taken at Bristol Temple Meads in June 1959 in which she is clearly still fitted with the tapered buffers. I would take this as very strong evidence that the same engine is sporting tapered buffers in the January 1957 photo on my platform ticket as I have previously maintained. Certainly they look to me to be tapered.

 

According to the G.C. Wood book (which seems pretty authoritative) the loco received a new front end and cylinders in June 1958, although so far I have not been able to find conclusive photographic evidence of this. However I have blown up the January 1957 photo on the Rail UK website and I think I can just about make out that the loco still had the earlier type of casing round the inside valve spindles which means of course that at least the loco had not by then received its new front end. So this is consistent with G.C.Wood's assertion.

[G-BOAF]

How was the front end replaced - were the front frame sections riveted to the main frames from new and therefore unriveted and replaced, or were the frames cut and new sections welded/riveted on?

Also what is the difference between valve spindle covers?

[Vacuum]

How was the front end replaced - were the front frame sections riveted to the main frames from new and therefore unriveted and replaced, or were the frames cut and new sections welded/riveted on?

Also what is the difference between valve spindle covers?

 

 

I believe that the frames were cut and new front ends welded on. Certainly, G.C. Wood says that they were welded.

 

The original inside valve spindle covers, as fitted to the first twenty Kings, were circular and the ends of the spindles protruded beyond the covers. Loco crews complained that their feet slipped on them when attaching lamps to the  top of the smokebox or the smokebox door so the GWR introduced a modified cover on the last ten Kings. This cover constituted a solid metal L shaped casing which completely shielded the spindle ends. The best thing you can do is to study photographs when the difference between the two types of cover will become obvious. Note that whenever any of the first twenty Kings received a new front end the opportunity was taken to fit the revised cover at the same time. However, some of the class, 6018 for example, retained their original covers throughout their entire lives (and presumably never needed new front ends although I wouldn't swear to that).

[Silver Sidelines]

A search for some imags took me to the Warkwickshire Railwyas site.

 

This is supposed 1958 but there seems to be quite a few maroon livery Mk1s - I would have guessed after 1960.

 

http://www.warwickshirerailways.com/gwr/gwrbsh1242.htm

 

For comparison a 1946 view - is there a difference?

 

http://www.warwickshirerailways.com/gwr/gwrw396.htm

 

And a 1962 view

 

http://www.warwickshirerailways.com/gwr/gwrsh3167.htm

 

Ray

[Silver Sidelines]

Then on Flickr we have in 1962

 

https://flic.kr/p/aPAkxr

 

Swindon Works 1963 - guessing preparation for retirement

 

https://flic.kr/p/5622Ju

 

Undated with E/E and taper buffers

 

https://flic.kr/p/21ZnCSR

 

Two interesting 1960s views here with late crest and perhaps taper buffers?

 

https://flic.kr/p/8eyEgv

https://flic.kr/p/dm16dR

 

A good 1959 shot here - parallel buffers and gaberdine mac.

 

https://flic.kr/p/USEKAW

 

Purports to be late 1950s - cannot see very much sdetails

 

https://flic.kr/p/7uc4qL

 

Some of these images may point you in the right direction

 

Ray

Edited April 3, 2018 by Silver Sidelines

[The Stationmaster]

Interestingly in the David Heys Collection there is a view dated 1955 of KGV broadside on and ex-works at Swindon which shows what appear to be parallel buffer housings although reflections might make the view deceptive.  Leech, an impeccable source, does however also date them to 1959 and dates the temporary middle lamp bracket to 1957.  The best answer, apart from front end renewal, will be the date when the lubricator was moved. 

[coachmann]

I would not pin too much faith of the Holden & Leech books. Some caption dates are widely off the mark.

[Vacuum]

A search for some imags took me to the Warkwickshire Railwyas site.

 

This is supposed 1958 but there seems to be quite a few maroon livery Mk1s - I would have guessed after 1960.

 

http://www.warwickshirerailways.com/gwr/gwrbsh1242.htm

 

For comparison a 1946 view - is there a difference?

 

http://www.warwickshirerailways.com/gwr/gwrw396.htm

 

And a 1962 view

 

http://www.warwickshirerailways.com/gwr/gwrsh3167.htm

 

Ray

 

 

Ray,

 

Thanks for taking the trouble to assemble this collection of photos (including those in your post no. 1032) none of which, I'm ashamed to confess, I have seen before.

 

Colin

 

A search for some imags took me to the Warkwickshire Railwyas site.

 

This is supposed 1958 but there seems to be quite a few maroon livery Mk1s - I would have guessed after 1960.

 

http://www.warwickshirerailways.com/gwr/gwrbsh1242.htm

 

For comparison a 1946 view - is there a difference?

 

http://www.warwickshirerailways.com/gwr/gwrw396.htm

 

And a 1962 view

 

http://www.warwickshirerailways.com/gwr/gwrsh3167.htm

 

Ray

[The Stationmaster]

I would not pin too much faith of the Holden & Leech books. Some caption dates are widely off the mark.

 

But Leech's notes are good as he spent a lot of time looking at the engines and Leech did record the dates for his photos from every example I've seen of them not in books but given to the footplatemen who appeared in them and he certainly got the names right for all the men I knew who appear in his photos as several of them were in later years members of my staff including some of my supervisors.

[Hilux5972]

Sorry to bring up an old thread but I couldn’t think of anywhere more appropriate to post this. I wish to renumber my R3409 King William IV. With the details this loco has, double chimney, large superheater cover, later steam pipes and lubricator in front of the steam pipes, what other locos would be suitable to renumber to? I’m hoping some of the higher numbered locos will be a good fit.

 

Regards, Ryan

Edited October 29, 2018 by Hilux5972

[robmcg]

Sorry to bring up an old thread but I couldn’t think of anywhere more appropriate to post this. I wish to renumber my R3409 King William IV. With the details this loco has, double chimney, large superheater cover, later steam pipes and lubricator in front of the steam pipes, what other locos would be suitable to renumber to? I’m hoping some of the higher numbered locos will be a good fit.

 

Regards, Ryan

 

I think they all (from 6016 at least ) got the mods you mention, but there were detail differences like variations with stepped front cylinder covers, buffers, strengthened bogie frames, cab roof ventilator mods, but 6025 at least had lubricators at rear of cylinder pipes in early 1958, and several I think retained original tapered buffers.until the end.

 

The Holden and Leech book has photos of all in later BR condition, but often by 'late BR' I mean 1956-on.   I guess photos can be the only guide, I don't know if anyone has published a full list of mods, sorry cannot be of more help.

Edited October 29, 2018 by robmcg

[Karhedron]

Sorry to bring up an old thread but I couldn’t think of anywhere more appropriate to post this. I wish to renumber my R3409 King William IV. With the details this loco has, double chimney, large superheater cover, later steam pipes and lubricator in front of the steam pipes, what other locos would be suitable to renumber to? I’m hoping some of the higher numbered locos will be a good fit.

 

Regards, Ryan

Hornby's KW4 has pretty much all the details the Kings had in their final years in service so most of the class are candidates. There are only a few exceptions.

 

6011 KJ1 retained it's original inside valve covers until the end (the only class member to do so AFAIK) so would not be suitable as this model has the later pattern valve covers.

 

6017 KE4 did not received straight buffer stocks until quite late (the last of the class to get them IIRC) so might be a less desirable choice.

Edited October 30, 2018 by Karhedron

[Vacuum]

Hornby's KW4 has pretty much all the details the Kings had in their final years in service so most of the class are candidates. There are only a few exceptions.

 

6011 KJ1 retained it's original inside valve covers until the end (the only class member to do so AFAIK) so would not be suitable as this model has the later pattern valve covers.

 

6017 KE4 did not received straight buffer stocks until quite late (the last of the class to get them IIRC) so might be a less desirable choice.

 

 

 

6018 carried the original inside valve covers to the end of his/her days also (see the photos on pages 108-111 of the Haynes publication on the Kings). I believe the fact that 6011 and 6018 retained their original covers meant that they did not receive new front ends but I stand to be corrected on this.

 

The only other oddity which I can think of is the narrow cab side window on the driver's side of 6001 which I think was unique.

[Hilux5972]

Thanks for the help everyone. I’d forgotten I had the Leech book pointed out by Rob so I can refer to that too. Cheers

[banburysaint]

I bought King Edward V today at a very reasonable price of just under £90. I originally purchased 6016 with the aim to sell on for a modest profit (and thats what I told my wife) but already I am weakening. Help! 

[mdvle]

20 hours ago, banburysaint said:

I bought King Edward V today at a very reasonable price of just under £90. I originally purchased 6016 with the aim to sell on for a modest profit (and thats what I told my wife) but already I am weakening. Help! 

 

Only 29 more to go for the complete set.

 

Does that help?

[Welchester]

1 hour ago, mdvle said:

 

Only 29 more to go for the complete set.

 

Does that help?

Or two more if you want to include both names for 28 and 29.

[Nick Gough]

Don't forget the 'replacement' 6007 following the Shrivenham crash.

[G-BOAF]

On 24/01/2017 at 09:12, Silver Sidelines said:

Hello Dave

 

Thanks for the reply.  I didn't think that I would be the only person to have noticed!

In my case it was only the 'narrow bearing' that seemed to be affected.  I thought at first that it might just be paint blocking the slot.. I hope Coachman is not reading this but I just used a little screw driver, the same width as the slot for the bearing and scraped the paint out of the slot and then applied a bit more pressure and continued to scrape out some of the Mazac casting.  The Mazac was very soft and after some gentle scraping and a couple of trial runs  I deemed it a satisfactory result.

 

There is another thread here on RMweb disecting Hornby, I would simply say that I think that I have had more than my fair share of duff models this last twelve months..

 

Regards

 

Ray

 

Resurrecting an old post.

My king seems to have the same problem. Just opened an 'As Preserved' KGV purchased 18 months ago when Hattons obtained new stock. Lovely model, except for the matt varnish, BUT very much rocking on the centre bearing on one side and stalling when running light (I also think the tender draw bar will need adjusting). Hopefully just scraping some flash off the bearing slot will solve the problem. I will anxiously remove the keeper plate tomorrow and take a look. Not impressed with this huge lack of QC....

 

[Silver Sidelines]

9 hours ago, G-BOAF said:

 

.........

My king seems to have the same problem. Just opened an 'As Preserved' KGV purchased 18 months ago .................. BUT very much rocking on the centre bearing on one side and stalling when running light .........Hopefully just scraping some flash off the bearing slot will solve the problem. I will anxiously remove the keeper plate tomorrow and take a look. Not impressed with this huge lack of QC....

 

 

Thanks G-BOAF.   An interesting observation.  I haven't bought any 'new' Honrby for a while so am not up to speed with the quality of their Quality Control.  It wil; be interesting to read what people have to say about the soon to arrive Princess.  It will need to be super good for the price?

 

Cheers Ray

[G-BOAF]

4 hours ago, Silver Sidelines said:

 

Thanks G-BOAF.   An interesting observation.  I haven't bought any 'new' Honrby for a while so am not up to speed with the quality of their Quality Control.  It wil; be interesting to read what people have to say about the soon to arrive Princess.  It will need to be super good for the price?

 

Cheers Ray

 

Its more complicated than I thought. chassis is probably being propped up on one side by centre bearing, but loco body is horizontal. This said, there is a 'lip' visible on the lower boiler interface on one side only, so it could be the factory corrected the lean due to the chassis bearing.

Either way it is a mess.

Any cheap kings from later batches left that I could just do a body swap on....?

[Silver Sidelines]

3 hours ago, G-BOAF said:

 

Its more complicated than I thought. ..

 

Any cheap kings from later batches left that I could just do a body swap on....?

 

Not good news then!  Some pictures might be useful.

 

Not Hornby but I have bought a couple of end of line Bachmann A2s,....There is a good reason why they are still 'For Sale'.

 

As to a replacement - your patience will be rewarded by watching listings on eBay and buying a model that has already been tried and tested.  Those of us with collections of steam outline models are getting old and there seems to be an increasing number of 'Collections' being broken up - some very good.

 

Good luck

 

Ray

 

 

[G-BOAF]

No visible flash in the top hat bearing slot. I scraped a bit with a screwdriver yesterday, but this made absolutely no difference. The loco is litterally balancing on three wheels and slips to a stand on unven track. Some measurement with the callipers suggests that the slot for the 'rim' of the top hat is just not deep enough, but about 0.2mm (its 0.75 rather than 0.95) meaning the bearing is not sitting properly.

 

How did this get through QC in the factory?

how did this error in the tooling not get spotted?

and how come they are not all like that?

Maybe there are multiple sets of chassis block tools and post-tooling modifications were not carried out on all of them. Either way, very very sloppy.

Wondering if I should just file the bearing rim down? It should still sit on the remaining interface.

[Silver Sidelines]

4 hours ago, G-BOAF said:

... the slot for the 'rim' of the top hat is just not deep enough,.

...

 

Thanks GB

 

I have re-read my past comments - I scraped the paint away and a lot lot more!

 

I came to the conclusion many years ago that a large number of the models that are sold never actually do a day's work.  From what you have said I would suggest that there are a lot of 'faulty' Kings out there. (A bit like the duff motors in the Q6, another topic that has been resurrected).

 

Go for it, take out loads of white metal with a small scraper (screw driver).  I wouldn't touch the brass bearing.

 

Cheers Ray