GWR Livery Hawksworth Carriages Which Were They?

[robmcg]

Hi All,

 

Apologies if covered elsewhere, but with my re-awakened interest in matters GWR; Kings and so on, I dimly recall seeing sets of Hawksworth carriages for sale at Rails from memory, and particularly I thought at the time the GWR livery set may become a bit of an oddity, since few trains would have combined the six Hornby Hawksworth models.

 

Full brake, 3rd, brake 3rd, composite, brake composite, 1st.

 

I don't see many of these GWR chocolate cream models being sold cheaply, the 3rds in particular are impossible to find. I do see quite good bargains for BR era versions here and there

 

Does anyone have information on;

1/  which versions of the carriages wore GWR livery before the BR red-cream variants.

2/  who might have them in stock.

3/ general information on construction and service 1947-9

 

After all, if Hornby or DJM are going to have state-of-the-art King class engines we need state-of-the-art carriages.

 

Rob

[Ian Hargrave]

Ah now,Rob,that opens another interesting debate...the vexed question of a shortage of quality r-t-r GWR coaching stock.Yes,the Hornby Hawksworths are excellent but there weren't that many of them in comparison with the ubiquitous Colletts and Toplights in the forties and early fifties.

I sincerely hope that ere I leave this mortal coil,some kind manufacturing soul (I hope they are reading this) will produce them to current standards. GW stock is a neglected area.Plenty of good kits,of course but not many of us have the skills to construct them to an acceptable standard.

We could start a lobbying group,of course....start whispering loudly now. "What do we want....Toplights and Colletts !"

[Ian Hargrave]

Ah now,Rob,that opens another interesting debate...the vexed question of a shortage of quality r-t-r GWR coaching stock.Yes,the Hornby Hawksworths are excellent but there weren't that many of them in comparison with the ubiquitous Colletts and Toplights in the forties and early fifties.

I sincerely hope that ere I leave this mortal coil,some kind manufacturing soul (I hope they are reading this) will produce them to current standards. GW stock is a neglected area.Plenty of good kits,of course but not many of us have the skills to construct them to an acceptable standard.

We could start a lobbying group,of course....start whispering loudly now. "What do we want....Toplights and Colletts !"

And ,silly me,I should add that Bachmann could serve us by upgrading their offerings on the GWR front too.....right there's another in the list of "things to do".

Mind you now that I've started on my choc & cream ramble in cyberspace,what about a specially commissioned set of stock from "Steam" Swindon ? I hear sharp intakes of breath all around....only dreaming....really.A thought,though.

[rovex]

Well on current form we can probably expect Bachman, Hornby, Heljan, Kernow and Hattons all to announce GWR coaches by the end of the year - only problem, they'll all choose the same ones.

 

Anyone for Collett?

[Graham Walters]

You may find this site useful :

 

http://www.gwr.org.uk/index.html

 

They have a listing of available kits and RTR, there is also a  section on the correct liveries for the right era, as well as projects on how to convert RTR coaches to GWR.

[chrisf]

There is another thread which discusses what is and isn't made and why.  I am too technically inept to post a link but it is called "Is there a surprising lack of GW rtr coaches" or some such.

 

Chris

[Steffi_C]

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/65827-is-there-a-surprising-lack-of-rtr-gwr-coaches/

[GNR Dave]

Check the boxes of the Chocolate & Cream BR liveried examples. I was advised by several retailers that they found a large percentage were miss-labelled, and actually contained GWR versions.

[GNR Dave]

It's not so much the construction of the kits that defeats me, but the livery, especially the panelling and gold lining on GWR stock. Whilst on the subject of rtr carriages, does anyone else think it's a shame that earlier smaller non bogie stock is ignored by Margate & Barwell. Most of the available rtr stock looks out of place on the non main line layouts that many of us have the space for.

[buffalo]

...Whilst on the subject of rtr carriages, does anyone else think it's a shame that earlier smaller non bogie stock is ignored by Margate & Barwell. Most of the available rtr stock looks out of place on the non main line layouts that many of us have the space for.

 

Yes, but then there's also a dire shortage of suitable RTR engines to pull them

 

Nick

[Steffi_C]

Check the boxes of the Chocolate & Cream BR liveried examples. I was advised by several retailers that they found a large percentage were miss-labelled, and actually contained GWR versions.

 

Surely some confusion.  There haven't been any BR liveried Chocolate & Cream Hawksworths thus far apart from R4500 (the full brake) which is in GWR livery but without any crest.

[Steffi_C]

Hi All,

 

Apologies if covered elsewhere, but with my re-awakened interest in matters GWR; Kings and so on, I dimly recall seeing sets of Hawksworth carriages for sale at Rails from memory, and particularly I thought at the time the GWR livery set may become a bit of an oddity, since few trains would have combined the six Hornby Hawksworth models.

 

Full brake, 3rd, brake 3rd, composite, brake composite, 1st.

1/  which versions of the carriages wore GWR livery before the BR red-cream variants.

2/  who might have them in stock.

3/ general information on construction and service 1947-9

 

After all, if Hornby or DJM are going to have state-of-the-art King class engines we need state-of-the-art carriages.

 

Rob

 

The only model that Hornby do that definitely ran in GWR livery is R4504, the brake composite.  Very few Hawksworths were built before BR switched to carmine & cream, and those that were would have been seen dotted among the BR versions.  As nice as they look, you can't assemble a prototypical GWR train from Hawksworth carriages, only a BR one.

[GNR Dave]

I'm no expert, and am happy to be corrected, but my GWR liveried coaches stated BR on the box ends. This probably came about, as hinted at by other posts,  because they probably never ran in service under the GWR.

[Rugd1022]

The GWR chocolate & cream liveried Hawksworths can be modified quite easily into early BR / WR condition, simply by painting out or removing the GW logo / crests below the waistline and adding a 'W' prefix to the running numbers. Jim Russell's GW Coaching Stock books have photos of some of these vehicles, which were actually painted at Swindon in GW style from new, but without any pre-nationalisation identiies. Photos of newly painted and in service examples are included in the books. Some of the captions are slighlyl cofusing in Jims books though - he sometimes identifies a given vehicle as being in GW livery when in fact it's in early BR crimson and cream (or vice versa). The clue is usually in the lining at waistline level and in the colour of the drop light window frames in the doors - if it has double lining and dark coloured droplight frames it's in chocolate and cream, if it has single lining and pale coloured droplights it's in crimson and cream. Beware (again!) though, as one or two vehicles in crimson and cream have been fitted with replacement droplight frames in the earlier darker finish, usually just one or two doors per coach. Several of those in the chocloate cream livery were photographed as late as 1951 / 52.

 

If you can get hold of Jim's books it will all make sense - they often crop up on ebay

[Metr0Land]

British Railway Coaching Stock In Colour by Robert Hendry has a pic of W7372W (corridor brake composite in choc/cream).  It is stated that this, along with W7277W were part of the Western Region Royal Train.  Unfortunately I can't seem to find pictorial evidence of this train to see what the complete consist was.

[Rugd1022]

British Railway Coaching Stock In Colour by Robert Hendry has a pic of W7372W (corridor brake composite in choc/cream).  It is stated that this, along with W7277W were part of the Western Region Royal Train.  Unfortunately I can't seem to find pictorial evidence of this train to see what the complete consist was.

 

These two vehicles were kept inside the carrage shed at Old Oak and attached to Royal workings as deemed necessary. Both should be an easy project using the Hornby brake / compo - I'm pretty sure that W7372 is at Didcot.

 

Edit : I knew I had some photos of it lurking in the hard drive somewhere - here it is at Didcot two years ago, albiet in GW branded livery...

 

[chrisf]

7372 and 7377 had charmed lives.   As Rugd1022 has said, they were kept for Royal work and VIP duties.  The shed at Old Oak kept their paintwork in such good condition that come 1957 or thereabouts they went straight into BR chocolate and cream without being sullied by blood and custard.  I believe that Royalty were given one or other of the saloons 9006 and 9007,decked out in claret, in which to ride.  Their travels are well chronicled in Railway Observer and they turned up in some interesting places.

 

Nowadays 7372 is at Didcot as pictured and 7377 is at Buckfastleigh.

 

Chris

[JSpencer]

That is interesting, when I once asked before I was told none were painted into BR choc and cream, so I went off and brought a maroon set and some Mk1s in choc and cream instead.

[robmcg]

Ah now,Rob,that opens another interesting debate...the vexed question of a shortage of quality r-t-r GWR coaching stock.Yes,the Hornby Hawksworths are excellent but there weren't that many of them in comparison with the ubiquitous Colletts and Toplights in the forties and early fifties.

I sincerely hope that ere I leave this mortal coil,some kind manufacturing soul (I hope they are reading this) will produce them to current standards. GW stock is a neglected area.Plenty of good kits,of course but not many of us have the skills to construct them to an acceptable standard.

We could start a lobbying group,of course....start whispering loudly now. "What do we want....Toplights and Colletts !"

 

No problem Ian, I will just photoshop the older Hornby RR stock for the rear half of a photo of a 1948 GWR express.  

[chrisf]

No problem Ian, I will just photoshop the older Hornby RR stock for the rear half of a photo of a 1948 GWR express.  

 

I was afraid you were going to say that.

 

Chris

[Steffi_C]

I'm no expert, and am happy to be corrected, but my GWR liveried coaches stated BR on the box ends. This probably came about, as hinted at by other posts,  because they probably never ran in service under the GWR.

 

Let's be clear what models we're talking here, I presume that it's R4500, R4501, R4502, R4503, R4504 and R4505.  I have a full set of these.  R4505 is mislabelled as BR, where it's clearly GWR livery.  All the rest state GWR on the label, with no mention of BR.  There's another labelling error on R4500 which shows the coach as being numbered W 316 W where in fact it's numbered 316.

 

Maybe later batches had different labels, but it remains the case that Hornby haven't yet modelled any Hawksworth coaches in BR Brown & Cream regardless of what the labels on the boxes might say.  So I'm not sure what it was in my earlier post that you disagreed with.

[Hilux5972]

Can someone please explain to me the difference between GWR chocolate and cream and BR chocolate and cream?

[Steffi_C]

Can someone please explain to me the difference between GWR chocolate and cream and BR chocolate and cream?

 

BR chocolate & cream appeared in 1956 on the WR, mainly on named expresses.  The coaches had the British Rail logo, and the numbers began and ended with a W.  I always thought that the BR brown wasn't quite as dark as that used by the GWR, but there'll be others who are better informed than I on such matters.

[Hilux5972]

So it's pretty just the numbering and logos?

[Karhedron]

So it's pretty just the numbering and logos?

It is also the coaching stock itself. The majority of stock painted in BR chocolate and cream were BR Mk1 vehicles. Only a handful of true GWR coaching stock was painted in chocolate and cream in BR days (mostly catering vehicles).

 

However, just to confuse matters, there is also the Hawksworth stock that was built in 1948. These vehicles were released to traffic in BR days but the Crimson and Cream livery was not finalised for a while. I think Swindon didn't start outshopping Cimson and cream until around November 1948 (I am sure someone can give the date).

 

So Hawksworth vehicles released to traffic during the first 10 months of 1948 had a slightly ambiguous livery. It was still GWR choclate and cream but it lacked the great western crest and also had the 'W' prefix applied to the running number creating a hybrid livery. Some older vehicles that passed through the works at the same time received similar treatment (K40 full brake W55 is one example I know of havfing made a model of it ).

 

So when talking about chocolate and cream livery in the BR period, most people are thinking of the livery applied to express formations from 1956 but it is worth bearing in mind that some people may be talking about vehicles that were released to traffic during 1948.

 

Clear as mud?