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Michael Delamar

Aintree grand national special questions

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A freind has shown me some of his excellent slides of grand national specials back in the 50s and 60s.

 

most of his shots are noted, apart from a couple he'd like to know more info on.

 

 

one of his early shots in the 50s is of Patriot Bunsen on Walton on the hill shed, he'd like to know what year that was.

 

and also a mid-late 60s one of an unidentified large tender Britannia, it had a headcode on of 1z46 covering the smokebox number. he'd like to know what year and what loco it was.

 

cheers

 

 

Mike

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Hi Mike,

 

I checked some of my books and I found info on the following Brits at Aintree;

1962 1Z60 70031 Byron

1964 1Z65 70054 Dornoch Firth

1964 1Z64 70051 Firth of Forth

 

Unfortunately nothing on 1Z46.

 

TomD

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Any chance of getting your friend to share his pics here? Would love to see them!!!

 

You know what I'd LOVE to see? - A pic of a couple of ex GC 4-6-0's at Lydiate say, heading for Southport to turn because Walton Shed was so damned busy. Now that would be a pic eh?!

 

We can dream.

 

And yes, they did do that.

 

 

Is this the same guy who is building a model of Aintree Central by any chance?

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I don't wish to go off topic, but in searching for some of this info, I came across records of A1's and A3's visiting Aintree. Does anyone know if any A4 ever ventured there?

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I don't wish to go off topic, but in searching for some of this info, I came across records of A1's and A3's visiting Aintree. Does anyone know if any A4 ever ventured there?

 

 

Not aware of one ever having reached Aintree.

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I never heard of an A4 travelling further west than Manchester. There are two photographs of A4s on the Woodhead route taken by Kenneth Oldham in his book "Steam in Wartime Britain", (pub by Alan Sutton, 1993). The first one shows 4495 Golden Fleece at Newton in December 1941.

The second photo is of 4488 Union of South Africa near to Godley in February 1942. In the caption it states that "the visit was regarded as a 'one-off' event and not until after the war was it learned that the loco had spent a month on the line".

 

There are no other details of its movements during that time.

 

I believe that a further A4 visit MAY have been in connection with the Royal Visit by George VI and Queen Elizabeth after the war.

 

gresley

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There is also a picture of A4 4498 at Manchester Central, published in 'Liverpool to Manchester Cheshire lines' by Bob Pixton. However, my reason for asking this question about the A4's, was that I came across information that 'Mallard' visited Blackpool North on September 30 1961, this information comes from Stuart Taylor's 'Scenes from the past: 26 (part 5).

Again my apologies to Mike for going off topic.

Tom D

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There is also a picture of A4 4498 at Manchester Central, published in 'Liverpool to Manchester Cheshire lines' by Bob Pixton. However, my reason for asking this question about the A4's, was that I came across information that 'Mallard' visited Blackpool North on September 30 1961, this information comes from Stuart Taylor's 'Scenes from the past: 26 (part 5).

Again my apologies to Mike for going off topic.

Tom D

Indeed it did, on a special from Retford. It was piloted back, at least part of the way by Midland Compound 1000 - that's my avatar, me on the footplate when it arrived.

post-9767-0-09205300-1300753260_thumb.jpg

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That's why I like this web, there is always someone who can add to the history, thanks for the picture.

 

Tom D

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A freind has shown me some of his excellent slides of grand national specials back in the 50s and 60s.

 

most of his shots are noted, apart from a couple he'd like to know more info on.

 

 

one of his early shots in the 50s is of Patriot Bunsen on Walton on the hill shed, he'd like to know what year that was.

 

and also a mid-late 60s one of an unidentified large tender Britannia, it had a headcode on of 1z46 covering the smokebox number. he'd like to know what year and what loco it was.

 

cheers

 

 

Mike

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A freind has shown me some of his excellent slides of grand national specials back in the 50s and 60s.

 

most of his shots are noted, apart from a couple he'd like to know more info on.

 

 

one of his early shots in the 50s is of Patriot Bunsen on Walton on the hill shed, he'd like to know what year that was.

 

and also a mid-late 60s one of an unidentified large tender Britannia, it had a headcode on of 1z46 covering the smokebox number. he'd like to know what year and what loco it was.

 

cheers

 

 

Mike

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been a long time since I posted this id forgotten, only just noticed it.

 

im not sure he can share them just yet as they are slides and doesnt have a scanner, only just learning computers and internet etc..

 

not the same guy who is doing Aintree central but a member of the west lancs O gauge club.

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Lying in bed listening to the wireless this morning, Grand National Day, I wondered whether there was a thread on RMweb about the famous 'specials' handled by the LMS on their electrified Ormskirk line and also by the LNER (via their joint ownership of Cheshire Lines).

And unsurprisingly I found this .... and also this closed thread with some interesting pictures

 

But I have a question I'd like to ask those with encyclopaedic knowledge of such matters: did all the LNER traffic from the eastern side of Britain get routed through the  Woodhead tunnel around onto the Cheshire Lines or would there have been 'deals' where specials from the NE would run via Tebay from the former S&D Stainmore line (and maybe Scotland from the Waverley route via Carlisle) ?

If there were these other routings, would  LNE locos have been allowed to run through (with a pilotman on the footplate) or would there have been a change of engines?

 

dh

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I always loved watching the Grand National in the 1960s on the telly, because of the brief glimpses of the special trains in the sidings by the start and alongside the first few fences.

 

Sadly, the only tv footage that seems to have survived is of the horsey pile-up in the year of Foinavon's victory. However, steam locos were still in evidence on a mixture of maroon and blue/grey coaching stock.

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Lying in bed listening to the wireless this morning, Grand National Day, I wondered whether there was a thread on RMweb about the famous 'specials' handled by the LMS on their electrified Ormskirk line and also by the LNER (via their joint ownership of Cheshire Lines).

And unsurprisingly I found this .... and also this closed thread with some interesting pictures

 

But I have a question I'd like to ask those with encyclopaedic knowledge of such matters: did all the LNER traffic from the eastern side of Britain get routed through the  Woodhead tunnel around onto the Cheshire Lines or would there have been 'deals' where specials from the NE would run via Tebay from the former S&D Stainmore line (and maybe Scotland from the Waverley route via Carlisle) ?

If there were these other routings, would  LNE locos have been allowed to run through (with a pilotman on the footplate) or would there have been a change of engines?

 

dh

 

 

Isn't there a thread somewhere concerning special trains from the NE running via Ripon, Ilkley, Skipton and Blackburn? I can't find it at the moment, but I'm sure I read it here.

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Can't answer the question about LNER train routing but I do happen to have about my person the CLC 1928 Special Notice. There is way too much information to give in detail. but these are the inward Specials.

 

Thursday March 29th

 

10.35 off Manchester Central, Aintree arrive 11-30

11.25 off Manchester Central, Aintree arrive 12.15 (First class only)

Nottingham. dep Godley 11.20. Aintree arrive 12.20

Liverpool, dep not given, arrive Aintree 12.33

Leicester LMS arrive Aintree 12.37

Manchester Central 11.55, arrive Aintree 12.45

Liverpool 12.55, arrive Aintree 1.00. (Normal service train but extended from Gatacre.)

Newmarket. dep Godley 1.04, arrive Aintree 2.15. Conveys horses.

 

Friday 30 March

 

Aintree arrivals

 

10.27 ex Mexboro LNE

10.53 ex Cleethorpes. Worked on to Southport. Dining Car

11.02. ex Barnetby and Lincoln. As above.

11.07 ex Manchester Central

11.12 ex Norwich LMS. Worked on to Southport.

11.26 ex Manchester Central. Variation of ordinary train, worked to Southport.

11.31 ex Leicester LNER Diner.

11.36 ex Sheffield LMS. Worked on to Birkdale.

11.41. ex Market Harboro LMS. Diner. Worked to Southport.

11.48 ex Bridlington LNER. Diner. Worked to Southport

11.52 ex Manchester Central.

11.57. ex Mansfield, Lincoln and Nottingham LMS. Worked to Southport

12.02 ex Denham LNER. Diner. Worked to Southport.

12.07 ex Manchester Central. First class only.

12.12. ex Leeds LNER via Godley

12.16 ex Newcastle LNER via Godley. Diner

12.21 ex St Albans LMS. Diner

12.25 ex Marylebone 3rd Class only. Diner

12.30 ex Manchester Central. First class only. 

12.35 ex St Pancras LMS Diner

12.40 ex Kings Cross Diner

12.45 ex Marylebone. First class only. Diner.

12.50. ex King's Cross. Pullman

12.55. ex Bristol, LMS Diner.

1.02 ex Manchester Central

1.07 ex Gloucester LMS

1.23. ex Liverpool

 

Saturday 31 March

 

Aintree arrivals

 

11.30 ex Manchester Central

11.55 ex Manchester Central First class only.

12.15 ex Leicester and Sheffield LMS

12.20 ex Nottingham and Sheffield LNER

12.30 ex Manchester Central

12.40 ex Liverpool

 

Of course the ordinary service ran as well, with modifications. Was the Grand National on Fridays in those days? Looks like it. Would have been fun to be a spotter at Aintree on the Friday, and the staff will certainly have earned their wages. 

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There is some reference to these workings in The LMS and LNER in Manchester by R.E.Rose pp 117-118.

 

Apparently the King's Cross Pullman was usually worked by a King's Cross Pacific, 4475 Flying Fox being recorded on four occasions. Gorton usually kept a couple of B7s standing at Godley in case of problems.

 

On p120 is a photo of Valour and City of Lincoln double heading one of the race specials in 1939.

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I always loved watching the Grand National in the 1960s on the telly, because of the brief glimpses of the special trains in the sidings by the start and alongside the first few fences.

 

Sadly, the only tv footage that seems to have survived is of the horsey pile-up in the year of Foinavon's victory. However, steam locos were still in evidence on a mixture of maroon and blue/grey coaching stock.

 

Mechanical horses rather than natural horses, but if you watch footage of the British Grand Prix from the year that it was held at Aintree (if you don't want to know the result, look away now: Stirling Moss won) there are also views of the railway in the background although from memory there was more goods stock there than passenger.

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maybe a bit out of the OP's timescale but the May 1969 R.O. has details of the specials to aintree that year:

 

Arrivals at Aintree with Grand National specials on 29th March [saturday] were:

267 on 1T51, 315 on 1T53 and 321 on 1T54, all from Euston.

1741 on 1T50 from Watford and 1721 on 1L35 from Coventry, Birmingham and Wolverhampton.

The empty stock of 1T51 was taken by 5206, the stock of 1T53 by 267 and 1T54 by 315, all to Kirkdale.

1T50 and 1L35 both headed north, probably to Lostock Hall or Southport.

All trains were of ten coaches, 1L35 being the stock of 'The Executive'.

The number of specials was much reduced, with one less from Euston and nothing from Newcastle, Grimsby and Swansea unlike previous years.

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I remember you used to watch Grand National coverage on BBC and there were lines of Mk1s , usually in maroon up on the banking. Always made Aintree special !

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just had a quick look on YouTube, there are several British Pathe films of the Grand National available

I had a quick look at the 1969 one and early on there's a clip of the station with a green 40 just arrived and then there's this screen grab from during the race:

post-1060-0-73410900-1460375271_thumb.jpg

 

Given my previous post, i wonder if that's 5206 on the stock of 1T51 from Euston (seems to be mainly mk2 stock, all blue/grey)?

 

EDIT: just noticed all the folk sitting on the loco! there were a lot of people watching from the coaches too

Edited by keefer
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On 17/03/2011 at 15:51, sn said:

Any chance of getting your friend to share his pics here? Would love to see them!!!

 

 

He was having the shots published in a book and wanted to wait until it’d been out a while but can now share..

 

Bunsen in Walton shed.4D92A5D0-8E13-4D7E-B696-E1602DEA87B2.jpeg.caa8c03b6824abdba2aa6019121ea268.jpeg

 

 

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