Freight on London Underground - late 1960s?

[roythebus]

There's been enough 08s working on the southern without problemss. Maybe in the time of the Finchley goods there weren't enough to go round, they weren't suitable for distance work, maybe insufficient brake force for the train weight and gradient profile of the line?

 

As for Colin Marsden's credentials, he was a driver at Waterloo when i worked there; he went on to become a driver instructor at the South side Training School, so ought to know his stuff.

 

The LT Sentinels weren't a roaring success. Before introduction one was subject to a test run to Northfields and back. I was guard on a District train from Ealing Broadway to Upminster, a hot summer's afternoon. As we approached Acton town, we were held at the home signal. I looked down and saw the sentinel with match truck go under us from Northfields, heard a bang and it didn't re-appear the other side of the bridge. My motorman told me it had failed, it had blocked the delta track and we had to run eastbound up the Piccadilly Line to Hammersmith. Non-stop, what excitement with an R stock!

[montyburns56]

L89 L95 and L98 Neasden 1968 by KDH Archive

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[D826]

My Dad would probably have been  having a brew in the steam shed if he was on shift.  Cracking pictures.

 

Thanks

 

Matt W

[montyburns56]

Neasden 1969 by David Christie

 

 

 

 

 

 

[simon b]

So to pull this thread back from the dead, I found these pics on my computer which may be of interest. These are screenshots of an old training video which feature some views of Woodford coal yard, and also a shot of the elusive Distant disc signal.

 

 

 

 

[simon b]

One of the Smithfeild meat market trains, outside Westbourne park.

 

 

[BrushVeteran]

On 12/03/2019 at 23:31, manna said:

G'Day Folks

 

One small point on the Widened Lines, no problem in using a class 08, as there is 'No' third rail.

 

manna

 

My understanding was that anything venturing down to the Widened lines had to be trip-cock fitted which I didn't think the 08's were. I'm sure Manna's expertise on this aspect will prove enlightening!

[simon b]

I've never seen a pic of tripcock gear on an 08, but it might have been only a few that were fitted. I would guess they would have been based at Finsbury park?  Although not used on freight there are pics on the internet of class 21 at Moorgate on passenger work, and those definitely didn't have tripcock gear.  

 

We do know that some class 15, 16, 23, 24, 26, and 31 were fitted.  Another I'm not sure about is class 20.

[BrushVeteran]

15 hours ago, simon b said:

I've never seen a pic of tripcock gear on an 08, but it might have been only a few that were fitted. I would guess they would have been based at Finsbury park?  Although not used on freight there are pics on the internet of class 21 at Moorgate on passenger work, and those definitely didn't have tripcock gear.  

 

We do know that some class 15, 16, 23, 24, 26, and 31 were fitted.  Another I'm not sure about is class 20.

Simon, having just gone through all of my old black & white photos of the 1960's it would appear that the fitment of LT trip cock apparatus was only confined to those locomotives originally allocated to Finsbury Park depot, now I assume from that this equipment was in use on the Widened Lines or Highgate branches?

Locomotives identified as carrying this equipment include  Class 15's D8227-D8243; Class 16's NIL; Class 20 (No evidence found of fitment); Class 21's D6100-D6109 originally allocated to the GN at Hornsey were trip cock fitted although D6110 onwards temporarily allocated to Stratford weren't) ; Class 23's D5900-9 (only up until refurbishment); Class 24's D5050-D5066 (equipment removed once transferred away); Class 26's D5300-D5319 (equipment removed once transferred to Scotland); Class 31's D5586-D5615, D5622-D5627, D5639-D5654, D5670-D5679.

This to me does throw up more interest in the operations and rostering of locomotives at Finsbury Park as :-

A). Other classes used the Widened Lines e.g. 24's,25's & 27's from Cricklewood, 20's and 24's from Willesden and 33's using the route via Hither Green.

B). LUL Lines that shared the LUL signalling system where BR regularly used the same tracks e.g. Amersham-Marylebone; Richmond-Gunnersbury; Queens Park-Watford Jcn. I think there were also a few lines on the Eastern around Forest Gate and on the LTS, but were any of these controlled by trip cock protection. I know the 165/168's on the Chiltern have some similar equipment.

An interesting subject, perhaps some former FP men can enlighten us!

 

[simon b]

On 09/12/2022 at 17:54, BrushVeteran said:

Simon, having just gone through all of my old black & white photos of the 1960's it would appear that the fitment of LT trip cock apparatus was only confined to those locomotives originally allocated to Finsbury Park depot, now I assume from that this equipment was in use on the Widened Lines or Highgate branches?

Locomotives identified as carrying this equipment include  Class 15's D8227-D8243; Class 16's NIL; Class 20 (No evidence found of fitment); Class 21's D6100-D6109 originally allocated to the GN at Hornsey were trip cock fitted although D6110 onwards temporarily allocated to Stratford weren't) ; Class 23's D5900-9 (only up until refurbishment); Class 24's D5050-D5066 (equipment removed once transferred away); Class 26's D5300-D5319 (equipment removed once transferred to Scotland); Class 31's D5586-D5615, D5622-D5627, D5639-D5654, D5670-D5679.

This to me does throw up more interest in the operations and rostering of locomotives at Finsbury Park as :-

A). Other classes used the Widened Lines e.g. 24's,25's & 27's from Cricklewood, 20's and 24's from Willesden and 33's using the route via Hither Green.

B). LUL Lines that shared the LUL signalling system where BR regularly used the same tracks e.g. Amersham-Marylebone; Richmond-Gunnersbury; Queens Park-Watford Jcn. I think there were also a few lines on the Eastern around Forest Gate and on the LTS, but were any of these controlled by trip cock protection. I know the 165/168's on the Chiltern have some similar equipment.

An interesting subject, perhaps some former FP men can enlighten us!

 

 

I've learnt something there as I didn't think the 21's were fitted, but thinking about it they must have been to be used on passenger work. I'm sure there was a rule somewhere that non tripcock fitted locos could work over the LT network but had to be crewed by 2 people and not in passenger service.

 

The 16's I thought some were fitted, I'm not 100% sure but thought I've seen a picture of at least D8400 and possibly also D8407 with gear in place. These would have been based at Devons road at that time so could have been used over the LTS sections.

 

I might ask over on the LNER site as there are a few ex Finsbury park lads on there who might be able to help us with info, I'll post it up here if I find anything. 

 

Edited December 12, 2022 by simon b

[roythebus1]

AFAIK the 08s (350 shunters as they were in those days) didn't appear to be tripcock fitted. It was indeed a rule that locos had to be double manned and the tripcock had to be tested on the tripcock tester at York Way and the isolating handle (known as the banjo) had to be in the "cut in" position. However, what happened in practice was shall we say somewhat different.

The problem was with the trip cock, if it got tripped, the loco brake would apply full emergency, the unfitted goods wagons would pile into the loco, not only shaking up the guard but the loco crew and the chance of a broken coupling or derailment!  The LT signalman at KX (Met) had to be informed if the trip was isolated.

[Jeff Smith]

I was going to start a new thread but then searched for 'Mill Hill East' and found this one that has already discussed much of what I had already found out about freight working over the Edgeware branch.

 

Growing up in the fifties and sixties my house overlooked Mill Hill Viaduct and I distinctly remember seeing red steam locomotives crossing it.  I also remember on at least one occasion seeing a red locomotive at Mill Hill East on the Gas Works side of the LT track.  I know there was a goods yard at Mill Hill East - there is a photo from the end of the platform dated July 1958 in Northern Wastes by Jim Blake and Jonathon James, which shows the continuing track and entry to the yard on the Gas Works side.  Also some wagons in the distance before the Sanders Lane Bridge and a track coming back beside the LT track which is presumably a head shunt with protection for the LT platform line.

 

At this time I was not in the least interested in trains so I guess just filed this info into memory as I suppose the colour was unusual.

 

Their presence now seems unusual, especially as I can't recall seeing any other steam locomotives, N2s would presumably have been black.

 

Can anyone shed any light on this?

[Jeremy Cumberland]

LT had running rights from Finchley via Finsbury Part to the Widened Lines at Kings Cross, so there would be no problem getting an LT steam locomotive to Mill Hill East, but why they should have done so, I cannot answer.

[Jeff Smith]

A bit of further research (apologies if covered back up the thread).

Freight to Mill Hill East and beyond by BR ER N2 until 1960, then diesel hauled until closure of the line beyond Mill Hill East in 1964.  The yard there and the siding to the gas works were closed in 1962, the gas works having ceased production in 1961.  The track beyond being lifted in 1964.

 

The LT locomotive I saw, either in the headshunt next to the platform line, or possibly in the gas works yard likely was before 1962.

 

I don't know which organization would have been responsible for lifting the track, BR or LT, if the latter perhaps it was the demolition train I saw!

[MossdaleNGauge]

On 03/03/2019 at 15:47, Mike Storey said:

 

Interesting, thanks, but on the 08's, at a wheelbase of 10ft 6" (so only 10" longer than the Sentinel) do we know whether the 08 left the depot precincts at Lillie Bridge or Neasden, in order to test track circuits? I am not aware of track circuit issues with 08/09 classes on BR (but stand to be corrected) but certainly of much longer wheelbase units. I was led to believe that the issue for lack of detection was one of axleweight more than wheelbase?

 

 

Sorry, new to this thread.

Anything with a short wheelbase would fail to be detected by the track circuit whenever it went over the original style of delta track circuit which needed an isolated short length of section rail for its own purposes. Hope the picture explains this.

Edited September 26, 2023 by MossdaleNGauge
Grammar

[keefer]

@Jeff Smith

Mill Hill East 1961 1:2500 OS map at NLS maps

Station and goods yard:

 

Station and headshunt into gasworks:

 

(The headshunt leads to two long sidings, adjacent to the running line, just off the left of the map)

Edited September 26, 2023 by keefer

[keefer]

Also signalling diagram (although from 1941)

From Harsig's Signalling Page

(Station headshunt/siding not shown, leading from the GF-operated points)

Edited September 26, 2023 by keefer

[Jeff Smith]

Keefer - very interesting.  The Inglis yard was probably lifted around 1964 - the REMEs had moved out by then (1961).

 

My re-printed 1896 OS map shows a smaller gas works with siding and a goods loop with shed on the north side of the running line just beyond the west end of the platform.  No barracks at this time; built1904.

[St Enodoc]

On 26/09/2023 at 11:12, Jeff Smith said:

Freight to Mill Hill East and beyond by BR ER N2 until 1960, then diesel hauled until closure of the line beyond Mill Hill East in 1964.

There were definitely occasional steam workings beyond MHE after 1960. I started primary school in that year and the line ran behind our playing field.

[Jeff Smith]

Ah yes, Dollis Primary School, I went to Frith Manor on the 125 bus from Kelly's Corner......

[St Enodoc]

1 hour ago, Jeff Smith said:

Ah yes, Dollis Primary School, I went to Frith Manor on the 125 bus from Kelly's Corner......

I walked to school from Bittacy Rise. My aunt still lives in Devonshire Road.

[roythebus1]

To answer an earlier query, the Widened Lines were fitted with LT trainstops at all signals controlled by LT. As I said earlier, locos/trains not fitted with trip cocks had to be double-manned.

 

I doubt that the signals on the Finsbury Park-Highgate line were ever transferred to LT control or signalling except at Highgate Wood where the boundary was. Likewise beyond Mill hill to Edgware if indeed there were any signals there.