Freight on London Underground - late 1960s?

[Mike Storey]

If anything stopped for too long at Leyton, the locals would have had the wheels off it anyway.....

[OntarioSouthland]

Early 60s seems better then. A. Reed's Met & GC Joint Line : an observer's notes while mainly dealing with the line from Harrow-on-the-Hill northwards also has a small section on a daily LT-loco-run service from Neasden (LT) to Willesden Green, which lasted until mid-1962 before being taken over by BR locos (so, about as late as the Chiltern Court train). L.95 is noted running on the former service.

 

J. Scott-Morgan's London Underground steam memories also has images of L.97 returning empty BR coal wagons from Lillie Bridge to Kensington Olympia in Dec1962 and L.98 shunting what appear to be BR wagons at Kensington Olympia in 1967. Presumably some interchange traffic continued beyond full engineering workings (including ex-BR or BR-desgined wagons) in that case?

BR wagons were interchanged, usually carrying stores for engineering works. The panniers would take them across to Lillie Bridge.

They weren't goods trains for various customers, just supplies for LT. I believe coal for the panniers was delivered this way too.

[bécasse]

BR wagons were interchanged, usually carrying stores for engineering works. The panniers would take them across to Lillie Bridge.

They weren't goods trains for various customers, just supplies for LT. I believe coal for the panniers was delivered this way too.

While it is true that these weren't goods trains for various customers (outside LT), they had to be paid for by their various LT customers in exactly the same way as the movement over BR to get them to the interchange point at Olympia had to be paid for, and, therefore, they were technically goods trains.

 

However, trains which carried stores between various rail locations (for example the daily stores train between New Cross Depot and Acton Works) were designated as stores, not goods, trains and the cost of operating them was no more separated out than the cost of running, say, an individual Upminster-Ealing Broadway District Line train.

[south_tyne]

Apologies for dragging this thread up from the past but the release of the Dapol LT pannier tank in 7mm scale raises some discussion about suitable wagons can be realistically paired with it.

 

Stock used for engineering trains and maybe also for traffic to coal depous seem to be the most logical examples? Maybe some dogfish wagons, 16t minerals and a suitable breakvan may be a starter for ten....

 

Any other suggestions?

Edited August 18, 2018 by south_tyne

[Fat Controller]

Apologies for dragging this thread up from the past but the release of the Dapol LT pannier tank in 7mm scale raises some discussion about suitable wagons can be realistically paired with it.

 

Stock used for engineering trains and maybe also for traffic to coal depous seem to be the most logical examples? Maybe some dogfish wagons, 16t minerals and a suitable breakvan may be a starter for ten....

 

Any other suggestions?

LT had their own design of ballast hopper, resembling a Dogfish. Likewise, they had some bogie spoil and rail wagons to their own design.

Most of the photos I've seen of trains of spoil were of three-plank opens; if there's not already such a wagon available, then there probably will be soon.

For brake vans, LT had some old ones, inherited from the Metropolitan Railway, and then bought some of the last Diagram of BR Standard ones to be built

[Metr0Land]

LT had their own design of ballast hopper, resembling a Dogfish.

 

They were pretty much a Catfish body mounted on Dogfish underframe.  However, life's very short and a Dogfish is quite passable.

 

20120507 135 Quainton. LT 20T Hopper 'Herring', HW418, Former No. EW102 by 15038, on Flickr

[jim.snowdon]

Worth remembering is that Neasden power station wasn't decommissioned until 1968 so there would have been coal traffic coming in via Wembley and ash and other waste going out. For the latter, LT retained a fleet of ex-Metropolitan 5-plank goods wagons, as well as the 3-plank ballast wagons inherited from the Met and the bogie stock from the LER, plus it's own wagons bought post-1933.

 

Jim

[adanapress]

Between the present outer wall of Farringdon Station,by  the widened lines platforms,  and the nearby Farringdon Road, there used to be a (probably  Great Northern owned) goods depot with maybe two terminating tracks. .  It had a head shunt  on a rather rising gradient, that ended  well to the west directly under the second (trolleybuses only) road bridge above the Ray Street Grid Iron.  I definitely saw from a passing Circle line train an 08 loitering by those buffer stops more than once.  But I think this would have been early 60s or more likely mid to late 50s.  Wether that 08 was working the depot or having a rest from banking in the Snow Hill area I never knew.

[adanapress]

In the period immediately before the goods yard tracks were lifted, and if you were a fairly senior railway officer, it was possible to have a truck loaded with former timber carriage partition wall units shunted right up against the buffer stops at Woodford (Snakes Lane)   which was right against the stationmasters garden fence.  One then

manhandled the partitions over the fence, took out a million screws, and used the timber to build a garage etc etc etc.  I know,  I helped with the manhandling!

[GoingUnderground]

I can't remember when the coal traffic stopped on the Uxbridge branch, but it will have been before 1970, as our local goods/coal yard had been turned into a car park by then. It probably coincided with the decommissioning of Neasfen power station.

[roythebus]

The 08 at Farringdon would have been for banking goods trains up snow Hill and possible up Hotel Curve into kings Cross. Usually crewed by Hornsey or KX men. That job went when the Snow Hill line was closed circa 1968. the signals remained illuminated ling after the track was lifted, at least until 1972!

 

The goods depots were all closed about 1964. there's been some lengthy discussion on these and the MR coal depots at West Kensington and High Street on the District Dave forum. The MR depots closed in 1964.

Edited December 10, 2018 by roythebus

[Mike Storey]

The coal trips up the Northern line to Finchley, Totteridge and High Barnet ceased in 1962, but I doubt it was by LT pannier even then. Rule 1 will need some major application.

[Metr0Land]

There was an article in London Railway Record a few years back (no idea where my copy is now due to house move). Tripcock fitted Class 15's were used in final days.

[bécasse]

Trip cock fitted class 15s seem to have been the universal diesel loco for BR workings over the east side of the Underground network - I am reasonably certain that they worked over the eastern end of the Central Line and they definitely worked over the East London line. Because everything happened at night they were rarely seen and even more rarely photographed.

[Metr0Land]

There was an article in London Railway Record a few years back (no idea where my copy is now due to house move). Tripcock fitted Class 15's were used in final days.

 

Found them easier than expected!  Main article was in LRR63 April 2010, and some addnl pics in LRR65 October 2010 - several daylight pics of variable quality.  On 21 and 22Aug trains were recorded as arriving at Edgware 10:50 and 10:20 respectively.

 

LRR65 shows D8235 shunting at Edgware April 1964.  It was stated the line was officially closed June 64 with last train/s May 64.  Another pic shows another Class 15 with demolition train 10th Oct 64

[Gwiwer]

The coal trips up the Northern line to Finchley, Totteridge and High Barnet ceased in 1962, but I doubt it was by LT pannier even then. Rule 1 will need some major application.

 

Absolutely not.  They could not fit through the tube tunnels.  Such workings would have been handled by the Battery Electric locos.

 

The LT wagon fleet was very varied and while some types were bought second-hand from BR a good many were unique to the Underground.  Those included, for example, the cable-drum wagons, welding plant wagons and flat brakes which had a tiny guard's "box" and an equally small open area for conveying materials, coal or ballast.

 

I understand coal deliveries on the Uxbridge branch ceased in 1961; traction coal to Neasden was required until 1971 though not for passenger workings north of Rickmansworth which also ceased around 1961 with the Amersham / Chesham electrification.

 

The well-remembered final workings of the GWR/LT panniers usually included the Neasden - Croxley Tip engineer's waste train which also conveyed waste from around the system after overnight or weekend works.  It was the loadings of those trips and the length of time off-juice which helped keep steam active; they were considered beyond the ability of the battery locos.

Edited December 13, 2018 by Gwiwer

[jim.snowdon]

Any freight workings onto the High Barnet branch would have come up from Finsbury Park via the original connection to the GNR, using BR motive power

 

Jim

[Mike Storey]

Absolutely not.  They could not fit through the tube tunnels.  Such workings would have been handled by the Battery Electric locos.

 

 

 

Jim has beaten me to it, but these trips joined the Northern at East Finchley from the old Finsbury Park GN connection and were most definitely steam hauled by BR locos until the final few years (I have pics in a book called the Northern Heights Railway), when diesels took over. I think these were 08's, but I would have to find the book again, and ran only at night. So not much use for the OP, but a Pannier could conceivably have made the trip, in model world......

[GoingUnderground]

Absolutely not. They could not fit through the tube tunnels. Such workings would have been handled by the Battery Electric locos.

Would coal workings have been hauled by battery locos? I would have thought that the deliveries would be direct from BR metals via Finsbury Park, and Highgate, i.e. The Northern Heights route, as used by the BR trains to Edgware BR. There would be no point in using the LT panniers for them as they were based at Neasden and Lillie Bridge.

[simon b]

Dont forget that modeling these trains gives you the reason to include one of the more obscure items of railway signaling, the distant disc signal. Certainly something I plan to include on my layout.

 

Edit: For those that have never seen one before here is a pic.

Edited December 25, 2018 by simon b

[roythebus]

Freight workings at the top end of the Northern were definitely hauled by BR power as others have said. Whatever locos Hornsey had that were trip cock fitted and later class 15 diesels and maybe Brush type 2s at times. 

 

The connection between BR and LT at Finsbury Par was severed when the wires went up, probably about 1975.

 

Coal traffic for Neasden would not have transferred from BR to LT at Wembley Park as there was no running connection. It would have used the connection as it still does at Harrow on the Hill and the Met. 

[jim.snowdon]

Coal traffic for Neasden would not have transferred from BR to LT at Wembley Park as there was no running connection. It would have used the connection as it still does at Harrow on the Hill and the Met. 

Although until some time between 1955 and 1960, it could also have come in via the connection with the Midland Railway's goods yard at Finchley Road.

 

Jim

[manna]

G'Day Folks

 

Interesting thread, I've heard of Class 15's and 20's working on the Northern heights, but class 08's weren't allowed, as they were to slow.

 

manna

[St Enodoc]

On 14/12/2018 at 22:34, Mike Storey said:

 

Jim has beaten me to it, but these trips joined the Northern at East Finchley from the old Finsbury Park GN connection and were most definitely steam hauled by BR locos until the final few years (I have pics in a book called the Northern Heights Railway), when diesels took over. I think these were 08's, but I would have to find the book again, and ran only at night. So not much use for the OP, but a Pannier could conceivably have made the trip, in model world......

Not just at night Mike. My primary school backed on to the line west of Mill Hill East and trains to/from Edgware were a regular sight during the school day. Mostly diesel-hauled (I now understand these to have been what became Class 15 usually) but occasionally steam with an N2.

[PhilJ W]

3 hours ago, manna said:

G'Day Folks

 

Interesting thread, I've heard of Class 15's and 20's working on the Northern heights, but class 08's weren't allowed, as they were to slow.

 

manna

I understood that the 08's were not allowed on lines with third/fourth rails. The Southerns own version of the 08 had larger wheels, this was to avoid the connecting rods coming into contact with the third rail.