BenL Posted October 4, 2014 Share Posted October 4, 2014 Hi there, I'm in the early stages of building a postwar GWR layout (set in 1946/7) and one of the things I'm working on is getting a vaguely representative mix of loco liveries. It's obviously tricky to do this given the relative lack of photos from the period and the generally grimy state of the locos at the time. In terms of Halls, I've got a couple of Bachmann examples reliveried into Hawksworth lined green, even though it seems not many made it into this livery. But what about those Halls that didn't? I'd like to represent one or two of these but have a couple of queries: 1) Did those Halls that remained in wartime black also retain their cab window sheeting or was this removed fairly quickly after the war without the loco necessarily being repainted, meaning there were Halls running in black with glazed cab windows? 2) Were some non-oil burning Halls with 4,000 gallon tenders painted into plain Hawksworth green with 'G crest W' on the tender? I came across the following photo recently and although the description says Ripon Hall is in lined Hawksworth green, I can't see any sign of the lining: http://www.railuk.info/gallery/notes/getimage.php?id=863 (I'm away from my books at the moment, but am I right in recalling that O.S. Nock's book on Stars, Castles and Kings has photos of a Star and a King in unlined green with 'G crest W' on the tender as outshopped, I think, in 1946 - is it possible that some locos that were supposed to be lined were being turned out in unlined green because of labour shortages and the pressing need for a maintenance backlog to be cleared?) Any more informed insights on this, or any pointers to photos which might help, will be greatly appreciated! Ben Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
neilrh Posted October 4, 2014 Share Posted October 4, 2014 From what I've read, there was no real consistency in what was considered "express locomotive", so Halls could be both lined and unlined - I would guess that there could be a mix of GWR, and G crest W, though I could not say with any certainty. I'd also allow for a mix of Collett and Hawksworth tenders. You're still likely to see wartime black paint jobs. And any locomotive not serviced since before the war would likely carry the Collett Shirtbutton monogram, also as many engines did not see the monogram, it's entirely possible locomotives nearing service time could still be found in Great (crest) Western finish. As with anything, if you can find a dated photograph of something, then it would be allowed - especially if you model that particular locomotive. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karhedron Posted October 6, 2014 Share Posted October 6, 2014 One thing I woul say is that most Halls repainted after the war seem to have had G(crest)W rather than GWR. The only loco I have found a photo of with GWR on the tender is the well-known shot of Garth Hall with a 3,500 gallon tender after conversion to oil firing. If other Halls received GWR, there does not seem much photographic evdience. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BenL Posted October 6, 2014 Author Share Posted October 6, 2014 Thanks Karhedron, like you, Garth Hall is the only Hall I've seen with GWR on the tender, which seems to relate to the fact that it was unusual (unique?) among post-war Halls in having a 3,500 rather than 4,000 gallon tender. In terms of the 'Great crest Western' and 'shirtbutton' brandings, I've not seen any photos of either of these on any GWR 4-6-0 postwar - it would certainly be great to know if anyone does know of such a shot. Does anyone else think that Ripon Hall appears to be in plain rather than lined green in the photo I posted the link for? Ben Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karhedron Posted October 7, 2014 Share Posted October 7, 2014 (edited) Rippon Hall does appear to be in unlined livery but I would be careful of drawing conclusions from such a low resolution image. Pitchford Hall has carried unlined green with G(crest)W but I do not know if this is historically accurate or preservation only. http://locoyard.files.wordpress.com/2012/11/2011-great-central-railway-loughborough-gwr-49xx-hall-class-4953-pitchford-hall.jpg?w=700 Edited October 7, 2014 by Karhedron Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coach bogie Posted October 8, 2014 Share Posted October 8, 2014 Also consider tender swops that produced variations between engine and tender http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/141429392891?_trksid=p2060778.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT Mike Wiltshire Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BenL Posted October 9, 2014 Author Share Posted October 9, 2014 Rippon Hall does appear to be in unlined livery but I would be careful of drawing conclusions from such a low resolution image.Pitchford Hall has carried unlined green with G(crest)W but I do not know if this is historically accurate or preservation only.http://locoyard.files.wordpress.com/2012/11/2011-great-central-railway-loughborough-gwr-49xx-hall-class-4953-pitchford-hall.jpg?w=700 Thanks Karhedron, that's a good point about the quality of the image. Does anyone know where Swindon's official photos of ex-works locos are held? If they're accessible, it might be worth having a trawl through shots from the latter wartime and immediate postwar periods to get some more concrete evidence of the range of liveries being turned out. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BenL Posted October 9, 2014 Author Share Posted October 9, 2014 Also consider tender swops that produced variations between engine and tender http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/141429392891?_trksid=p2060778.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT Mike Wiltshire Thanks Mike, that's a great shot. It would be interesting to know what year it's from as if it's postwar, it would give some indication of how long sheeted cab windows were retained. I'm guess both the loco and tender are in wartime black, although the tender looks to have been painted or at least cleaned more recently than the loco. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karhedron Posted October 10, 2014 Share Posted October 10, 2014 Thanks Karhedron, that's a good point about the quality of the image. Does anyone know where Swindon's official photos of ex-works locos are held? If they're accessible, it might be worth having a trawl through shots from the latter wartime and immediate postwar periods to get some more concrete evidence of the range of liveries being turned out. Steam museum in Swindon has some works photos. The thing to remember is that not all items (new or passing through the works) were photographed. The works photos were intended to be representative samples but are not comprehensive. You may get lucky and find what you are looking for but absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. The post-war years were times of austerity. Film was expensive and man-power to mend the run-down railways was in short supply. That is one of the reasons why the twilight years of the grouping era and the early years of nationalisation remain poorly photographed, in spite of the fascinating mish-mash of liveries around. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold gwrrob Posted October 28, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 28, 2014 If I could use this thread to ask the same of any photos of the G badge W livery as appied to Castles postwar would be most helpful too.Collett tender engines only please. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karhedron Posted October 28, 2014 Share Posted October 28, 2014 I can't seem to find any shots online but IIRC there are at least a couple in "Power of the Castles". Might be worth picking up a copy. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold gwrrob Posted October 28, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 28, 2014 I can't seem to find any shots online but IIRC there are at least a couple in "Power of the Castles". Might be worth picking up a copy. You're not wrong there, thanks. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BenL Posted November 3, 2014 Author Share Posted November 3, 2014 2) Were some non-oil burning Halls with 4,000 gallon tenders painted into plain Hawksworth green with 'G crest W' on the tender? I came across the following photo recently and although the description says Ripon Hall is in lined Hawksworth green, I can't see any sign of the lining: http://www.railuk.info/gallery/notes/getimage.php?id=863 Ben Further to this question I posed in the original post, I've come across this photo of a Hall c. 1947: http://mikemorant.smugmug.com/Trains-Railways-British-Isles/GWR-and-BRW/GWR-4-6-0s/i-NjgVr4M While there's some grime in evidence, it doesn't look quite thick enough to completely obscure any lining so I think the livery might be unlined green. I'm starting to wonder if wartime black on Halls was initially replaced with unlined green, with lined green only starting to reach some Halls towards the very end of the GWR (I seem to recall that the GWRJ article on wartime and postwar GWR liveries lists at least one original Hall that was recorded in lined green). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BenL Posted January 17, 2015 Author Share Posted January 17, 2015 Following Karhedron's suggestion above, I got in touch with the library at STEAM and made use of their historical enquiries service to see what photos they had of Halls in post-1942 liveries. They found a number of good shots and posted them online. One of them is clearly of wartime black livery, with cabside window plated over: http://www.steampicturelibrary.com/hall-class-locomotive-no-4952-peplow-hall/print/10560363.html There is also a shot of a modified Hall in postwar lined livery: http://www.steampicturelibrary.com/hall-class-locomotive-no-6976-graythwaite-hall/print/10560219.html But the rest appear to be in unlined livery. It is of course hard to tell if these liveries are black or green but Clyffe Hall in particular appears more like green than black: http://www.steampicturelibrary.com/hall-class-locomotive-no-5951-clyffe-hall/print/10560369.html http://www.steampicturelibrary.com/hall-class-locomotive-no-5944-ickenham-hall/print/10560367.html http://www.steampicturelibrary.com/hall-class-locomotive-no-4967-shirenewton-hall/print/10560365.html http://www.steampicturelibrary.com/hall-class-locomotive-no-6925-hackness-hall/print/10560227.html http://www.steampicturelibrary.com/hall-class-locomotive-no-4905-barton-hall-august-1947/print/10560225.html STEAM also found a nice shot showing the 'G crest W' tender lettering on a Collett 4,000g tender: http://www.steampicturelibrary.com/4000-gallon-locomotive-tender-showing-new-lettering-february-1945/print/10560223.html So some nice shots but no smoking gun proving my suspicion that non-oil burning Halls (and Saints and Stars) were also painted unlined green postwar until the reintroduction of lining to these classes in late 1947. I will try contacting the NRM to see if they have any more definitive photos, such as some nice clear ex works shots in which it's easier to tell the difference between green and black liveries. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bulwell Hall Posted January 17, 2015 Share Posted January 17, 2015 Following Karhedron's suggestion above, I got in touch with the library at STEAM and made use of their historical enquiries service to see what photos they had of Halls in post-1942 liveries. They found a number of good shots and posted them online. One of them is clearly of wartime black livery, with cabside window plated over: http://www.steampicturelibrary.com/hall-class-locomotive-no-4952-peplow-hall/print/10560363.html There is also a shot of a modified Hall in postwar lined livery: http://www.steampicturelibrary.com/hall-class-locomotive-no-6976-graythwaite-hall/print/10560219.html But the rest appear to be in unlined livery. It is of course hard to tell if these liveries are black or green but Clyffe Hall in particular appears more like green than black: http://www.steampicturelibrary.com/hall-class-locomotive-no-5951-clyffe-hall/print/10560369.html http://www.steampicturelibrary.com/hall-class-locomotive-no-5944-ickenham-hall/print/10560367.html http://www.steampicturelibrary.com/hall-class-locomotive-no-4967-shirenewton-hall/print/10560365.html http://www.steampicturelibrary.com/hall-class-locomotive-no-6925-hackness-hall/print/10560227.html http://www.steampicturelibrary.com/hall-class-locomotive-no-4905-barton-hall-august-1947/print/10560225.html STEAM also found a nice shot showing the 'G crest W' tender lettering on a Collett 4,000g tender: http://www.steampicturelibrary.com/4000-gallon-locomotive-tender-showing-new-lettering-february-1945/print/10560223.html So some nice shots but no smoking gun proving my suspicion that non-oil burning Halls (and Saints and Stars) were also painted unlined green postwar until the reintroduction of lining to these classes in late 1947. I will try contacting the NRM to see if they have any more definitive photos, such as some nice clear ex works shots in which it's easier to tell the difference between green and black liveries. Some Halls - as well as some Saints and Stars - were most definitely painted in unlined green in the post-war era. If you look in Tony Sterndales book 'Great Western Pictorial No.3' published by Wild Swan, you will find examples of all three classes painted thus. The Kenneth Leech book 'Portraits of Western 4-6 -0s' also has photos of some engines without lining - No 2912 St Ambrose being one example that immediately comes to mind. For a period after nationalisation engines emerged from Swindon with out any signs of ownership at all and later they had British Railways in full in GW style lettering - see 'Early Years of Western Region Steam' by PM Alexander, again published by Wild Swan, which has a photo of No 4017 Knight of Liege at Bath in 1948. Of course this will require you to refer to an actual book in an actual library rather than relying on the internet - it's by no means all online! Gerry Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold gwrrob Posted January 17, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 17, 2015 When you see how nice the Hall looks in the post war livery it makes me wonder why Bachmann refuse to do this version. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DCB Posted January 17, 2015 Share Posted January 17, 2015 As GWR locos were serviced on a mileage basis and from memory this was about 90 000 miles a simple job like the Halls would have been in works every 15 to 18 months for at least an intermediate overhaul, at which swapping steel sheets for cabside windows would have been quite simple and straight forward. Painting would probably have had to wait for a heavy overhaul which would involve a boiler change where a lot of boiler cladding and cab panels would have been disturbed and would need repainting. One or two LMS locos survived the war in pre war red but they seemed to work on the basis of if it ain't broke don't fix it rather than any logical system of preventative maintenance. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium M.I.B Posted August 11, 2015 RMweb Premium Share Posted August 11, 2015 (edited) Following Karhedron's suggestion above, I got in touch with the library at STEAM and made use of their historical enquiries service to see what photos they had of Halls in post-1942 liveries. They found a number of good shots and posted them online. One of them is clearly of wartime black livery, with cabside window plated over: http://www.steampicturelibrary.com/hall-class-locomotive-no-4952-peplow-hall/print/10560363.html If this was a black engine would it not have the yellow "GWR" insignia? Edited August 11, 2015 by M.I.B Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karhedron Posted August 11, 2015 Share Posted August 11, 2015 No, quite a few locos were turned out in black with G(crest)W. A number of Granges were painted the same way. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium M.I.B Posted August 12, 2015 RMweb Premium Share Posted August 12, 2015 Thanks. So were the G**W logos different to the lined green ones in the same way that GWR for the black engines was different? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshall5 Posted August 13, 2015 Share Posted August 13, 2015 If this was a black engine would it not have the yellow "GWR" insignia? Not necessarily - my understanding is that the hand painted yellow GWR was mainly applied at works other than Swindon as a result of the wartime shortage of shaded transfers. Cheers, Ray. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium M.I.B Posted August 13, 2015 RMweb Premium Share Posted August 13, 2015 OK thanks Ray. That may help to explain why some received plain "GWR" letters and others received "G**W" Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium OnTheBranchline Posted December 9, 2016 RMweb Premium Share Posted December 9, 2016 Is there any photographic evidence of a Hall with a G (crest) W 3,500 gallon tender livery? I have seen a few pictures of Halls with 3,500 gallon tenders in the post war era but the engine/tender are too dirty to see the livery. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miss Prism Posted December 9, 2016 Share Posted December 9, 2016 STEAM also found a nice shot showing the 'G crest W' tender lettering on a Collett 4,000g tender: http://www.steampicturelibrary.com/4000-gallon-locomotive-tender-showing-new-lettering-february-1945/print/10560223.html Hmmm. Why does Steam caption this as 'new lettering'? (I suspect they meant new black livery.) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miss Prism Posted December 9, 2016 Share Posted December 9, 2016 I have seen a few pictures of Halls with 3,500 gallon tenders in the post war era Interesting. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now