Postwar GWR Hall liveries

[The Fatadder]

6990 was built in 1948 and is a modified Hall. I read somewhere that it was given a G W branded tender from one of the 1947-build modified Halls for the purpose of the 48 exchange trials, seemingly in a last stand of company pride by its former servants.

T

The GWRJ 7 reference to a 'unmodified' Collett Hall in lined green was towards the end of the main article text, but as I mentioned above I'm pretty sure I found a photo of said Hall in ex works lined green in 1948 but without G W branding, suggesting the lining on this Hall wasn't seen in service in GW days.

Of course it is,

Apologies for talking rubbish.  Back to the search....

[The Great Bear]

It seems highly probable that few ,if any, Collet Halls received GWR lining post war

 

Am I correct in assuming that in 1938-9 all Halls then in service would be lined and bearing either Great Western or Shirt Button livery?

 

If so, I would have expected (despite lack of photographic evidence) that some would have survived to 1947 bearing their pre war livery ......undoubtedly heavily work stained.

 

If not this would imply that every Hall built pre-war went into the Workshops between 1939 and 1947 and was painted Black or Full Green. Is this likely? I honestly have no idea.

 

Over the years I have carefully rebranded my Halls (4, all lined) with GxxW on the tender, so that they all bore the "correct"` livery for 1947-8

 

This thread and a discussion on ANTB have shown me that this was a very foolish assumption.  So I have embarked on a repainting/renaming programme aiming to finish with 2 all green, 1 black and 1 lined with shirt button (weathered|!)

 

I would appreciate any advice.

 

REgards from Vancouver

 

Glad I've seen this thread. I'm in similar boat to you, John - just as well I've only re-liveried one, it seems incorrectly.

 

Depending on the preponderance of black and plain green ones it does make adding to my fleet easier using the Hornby offerings, Olton Hall and the like; that is assuming the smokebox door number would come off without making too much mess.

[County of Yorkshire]

Locomotion Models currently doing Olton Hall for £62.50. Curiously, it's not listed under their Special Offers section, despite the product page declaring it as such!

 

I've got one half way through a re-brand to wartime black, but, I may yet get another...

 

CoY

Edited February 7, 2017 by County of Yorkshire

[gwrrob]

Locomotion Models currently doing Olton Hall for £62.50. Curiously, it's not listed under their Special Offers section, despite the product page declaring it as such!

 

I've got one half way through a re-brand to wartime black, but, I may yet get another...

 

CoY

 

Smokebox door number removal....

[Miss Prism]

On the gwr.org livery page, http://www.gwr.org.uk/liveriesloco1942.html , I've inserted the following sentence for the post-1945 situation, which I hope gives the general situation: 'Halls were shopped without lining, but the new Modified Halls appeared with lining.'

[Karhedron]

I have been rummaging through STEAM's archives. All the Halls I have been able to identify from that period match the pattern of Collett = unlined and Hawksworth = lined.

 

Still looking for the exception to the rule.

 

http://www.steampicturelibrary.com/hall-class-locomotive-no-5951-clyffe-hall/print/10560369.html

 

http://www.steampicturelibrary.com/hall-class-locomotive-no-4952-peplow-hall/print/10560363.html

 

http://www.steampicturelibrary.com/hall-class-locomotive-no-6976-graythwaite-hall/print/10560219.html

 

http://www.steampicturelibrary.com/hall-class-locomotive-no-4967-shirenewton-hall/print/10560365.html

 

http://www.steampicturelibrary.com/hall-class-locomotive-no-6925-hackness-hall/print/10560227.html

[The Great Bear]

So, armed with GWRJ No.7 and Book of the Halls Pt 1 I've been through the records of around 30 Halls of sheds relevant to my layout. Of this lot around 1/2 look to have received war time black - either listed in GWRJ or I am assuming those in the works after this to the end of the war. By the time I'm intending to set my model, spring 1947, most of these seem to have back in the works post war for another general or intermediate overhaul including boiler swap so I'm assuming based on this thread this would be in unlined green? Don't think I've found a loco that didn't have a boiler swap between 1942-1946 and thus carrying pre-war lining.

 

Does all this sound plausible? (I am ignorant about what's entailed in loco serving so whether it follows a boiler swap would then necessarily mean a full repaint, though this is suggested earlier in this thread.)

 

If my reasoning is right then a bit of re-painting is required; at least it's making things simpler.

 

I guess tenders were repainted less frequently so it wouldn't be inconceivable to have unlined green loco with a lined tender - assuming you could see that through the grime of course!

Edited February 20, 2017 by The Great Bear

[Horsetan]

Locomotion Models currently doing Olton Hall for £62.50. Curiously, it's not listed under their Special Offers section, despite the product page declaring it as such!...

OT, but that's exactly the livery I have in mind for a Finney "Hall", with the full Hogwarts turnout... Isn't that supposed to be BR maroon?

Edited February 20, 2017 by Horsetan

[Hilux5972]

It's a bit hard to describe what colour Hogwarts Castle is. It is painted the same colour as West Coast Railways Mk1 coaches which gave the train a uniform look on screen. As has been well documented, the West Coast coaches are a different shade of BR Maroon, much more red than usual.

[phil_sutters]

It's a bit hard to describe what colour Hogwarts Castle is. It is painted the same colour as West Coast Railways Mk1 coaches which gave the train a uniform look on screen. As has been well documented, the West Coast coaches are a different shade of BR Maroon, much more red than usual.

It is almost impossible ensure true colour reproduction, especially from a scanned print, but I can offer this shot. I was in the 'gents' at York, when I heard the unmistakeable clank of con-rods. I finished my ablutions a.s.a.p. and hastened to the platform to see this. Olton Hall in Hogwart's colours, but with its own plates. The tender still had the Hogwart's branding.

Edited February 24, 2017 by phil_sutters

[nigel newling]

GW engines don't "clank" :-)

[phil_sutters]

GW engines don't "clank" :-)

How would you describe the con rod noise as the loco drifts into the station?

[Coach bogie]

How would you describe the con rod noise as the loco drifts into the station?

There should only be a spitting noise from the poppet valves.

 

In fairness, I would see Hogwarts on a regular basis in the North East and it was getting 'worn' towards the end of its' ticket and there were some very unusual noises for a GWR engine.

[Horsetan]

It's a bit hard to describe what colour Hogwarts Castle is. It is painted the same colour as West Coast Railways Mk1 coaches which gave the train a uniform look on screen. As has been well documented, the West Coast coaches are a different shade of BR Maroon, much more red than usual.

 

Closer to BR Crimson?

[Karhedron]

From memory, the excellent GWR Journal article on postwar liveries in vol 7 does mention a Collett Hall, in the 59xx series I think, that was observed in lined green postwar but i seem to recall that I found a photo of it exworks in 1948 (I think in Tony Sterndale's excellent Great Western Pictorial no.3, sorry I can't check as I'm away from my books at the moment) and while it was lined, it didn't have any branding on the tender so I think it was only lined in early BR days rather than GWR days.

I've had a look through volume 3 of Tony Sterndale's collection and I couldn't find any Collett Halls in lined green post-war livery. Plenty of other nice shots to enjoy of a rapidly changing period but that particular target remains elusive.

[The Great Bear]

I've had a look through volume 3 of Tony Sterndale's collection and I couldn't find any Collett Halls in lined green post-war livery. Plenty of other nice shots to enjoy of a rapidly changing period but that particular target remains elusive.

 

As well, then, I have only changed 1 hall to date to post-war lined! 

[M.I.B]

I believe it was on an early post on this thread that someone had a link to a photo of Maindy Hall with a Hawksworth tender.  I can no longer find that info.

 

Does anyone have the reference?

 

Thanks in advance.

[The Fatadder]

I have finally purchased a Bachmann Modified Hall with a Hawksworth tender, which has now got me looking at potential locos to number it.

 

I hadn’t realised quite how late into the production it took for the Hawksworth tender to be standard, with 6971 getting the first tender from the initial what (according to the Brassmasters tender instructions) was the first batch of Hawksworth tenders for Halls in October 47 (the preceding batches being used on new Castles).

 

I had initially thought that I would prefer to model one of the 1944 build which did not receive names until late 47 or 48, but I am assuming it very unlikely that a 1944 Hall (with or without name) such as 6965 (as the model comes) would have gained a Hawksworth tender until much later on.

 

Which leads me to thinking that 6971 and 6972 (both Bristol based) would be the optimal choices, both assumed to be in lined green and certainly with Hawksworth tender. However I would like to confirm my assumptions correct, so has anyone seen evidence of a Modified Hall pre 6971 running with a GWR liveried Hawksworth tender in 1947?

 

I suppose the alternate option is to buy a Collett tender and stick to the original plan, but to me a Modified Hall equals a Hawksworth tender…

[gwrrob]

http://www.greatwestern.org.uk/m_in_hal_hall69a.htm

 

Would the Halls built in the early war years been out shopped in wartime black livery or were they plain green.

[BenL]

http://www.greatwestern.org.uk/m_in_hal_hall69a.htm

 

Would the Halls built in the early war years been out shopped in wartime black livery or were they plain green.

Good question Robin. From memory, I think the GWRJ article on wartime and post war GW liveries says that plain black was introduced in Feb '42 so presumably Halls built in the early war years prior to this would have been in lined green with shirtbutton.

[gwrrob]

Good question Robin. From memory, I think the GWRJ article on wartime and post war GW liveries says that plain black was introduced in Feb '42 so presumably Halls built in the early war years prior to this would have been in lined green with shirtbutton.

 

I'm looking for a candidate that was still in wartime black.  

[The Fatadder]

I'm looking for a candidate that was still in wartime black.

 

I will check my research and send options, there are lots to choose from (along with the early batch modified halls some of which were still without names in 47

[M.I.B]

I'm looking for a candidate that was still in wartime black.

 Robin,

 

There were quite a few out-shopped new in black but without names.  Beware - they need mods to cab side windows.

 

I have modelled a black 6944 ( later to become Fledburgh Hall) as pictured - with a lined green tender.  I have a spare tender in matching black as well to mix it up a little.  

[john dew]

What is the standard of proof that you are looking for Robin?

 

The problem I found was that photos of post war Halls, unless coming out of the shop, were invariably so workstained it was impossible to determine whether they were green or black.

 

I assume that any loco going in for a major overhaul between + - 1942 and 1944 would come out black and therefore would still be black in 1947.

 

Not having access to overhaul data I suspect my standard of proof was set at a rather low level ! My donor was a Hornby Railroad 4901 Adderley Hall......not too expensive if the painting was a disaster.......I then looked for a 49xx built in the late 20s shedded in the North West in 1950 .......so Granby now has a black, heavily weathered, 4918 Dartington Hall shedded at Chester in 1950

 

I notice that the eventual naming of Halls built during the war was spread over a number of years and I wonder whether this coincided with a workshop visit and a repaint to unlined green. Pure speculation....but if correct not all Halls built during the war would be black in 1947

 

Good luck with the search Robin

 

 

Edited to correct wording in last para

Edited November 8, 2017 by john dew

[gwrrob]

Cheers John.

 

I'm using the Hornby railroad version and as it has a fireman's tunnel must be a 59xx or 69xx ( up to 6959 ). Shedded somewhere in the West Country in '47 is a bonus. I agree with your sentiments on them being filthy in that period.