Headshunt operation question

[ejstubbs]

I'm in the process of creating a layout design which is very roughly based on Wooler station on the NER Alnwick to Cornhill branch (that line was also home to Kilham Sidings, supposedly the prototype inspiration for Wright Lines and Inglenook Sidings).  I'm only working from the station layout between the two road bridges (over the modern-day B6525 and B6348).  I'm ignoring the auction mart to the north and its sidings, at least for the moment.

 

The station is on a single track main line, with a loop for the station platforms.  The goods sidings at the station are accessed via a headshunt off the south end of the down (northbound) side of the station platform loop.  I'd like to understand how this arrangement would have been operated, assuming that both up and down goods services used this yard.  My guess up to now is as follows:

• down goods services would arrive at the down platform, the engine would run round using the loop and depart the down platform 'wrong way' in to the headshunt;
• up goods services would run 'wrong way' through the down platform and straight in to the headshunt.

Does that sound right, or would it have been operated some other way?

 

Bear in mind that there will be fewer sidings in my layout - in particular the siding incorporating a loop (which I think runs to a row of coal drops/bunkers?) will not be included.

 

(I'm also wondering about the function of the spur at the north end of the down platform.  Would this have had a particular function that I could usefully incorporate in my layout?)

Edited October 7, 2014 by ejstubbs

[Dave Scott]

It all really depends on the length of the train, where the waggons are in the consist, how crowded the sidings are and how frequent are passenger services.. If you take all the train into the headshunt and the waggons you want to drop are in the middle you need an empty siding to leave what you dont need. Tthis is probably unrealistic. It is also likely that the train wont fit the headshunt. What is most likely is the train would enter the down platform from either direction. Even if there is no controlling signal a shunt move can be authorised by the bobby.. the loco would run round if required. The train would stay in the platform leaving the up line free for passenger services, both up and down, you could do with checking if the signalling allowed this, it often did. The goods loco could then shunt between the yard and the platform as required. Obviously trains cant cross but this would most likely be taken into account in the timetable pick up freights being scheduled services..

 

This is what I would expect but given that local arangements often applied I may be wrong.

[The Stationmaster]

Probably only shunted by trains heading in one direction and I would think most likely shunted the easiest way - probably by by a Down train working as you surmise.

 

And, fairly obviously, traffic for that station would be formed rear on arrival to simplify, and speed up, the shunting with teh rest of the train left in the Down loop.

 

But it would be worthwhile trying to find a signalling diagram as that would reveal if the layout was signalled for an Up train to do what you suggest.

Edited October 7, 2014 by The Stationmaster

[Dave Scott]

Probably only shunted by trains heading in one direction and I would think most likely shunted the easiest way - probably by by a Down train working as you surmise.

 

And, fairly obviously, traffic for that station would be formed rear on arrival to simplify, and speed up, the shunting with teh rest of the train left in the Down loop.

 

But it would be worthwhile trying to find a signalling diagram as that would reveal if the layout was signalled for an Up train to do what you suggest.

I agree that when you start out from  the main yard the waggons to be dropped off are in the corect order and at station 1 are at the rear. Drop off 5 pick up 6. and at station 2 the wagons to be dropped off are 7,8,9 etc. At the last station the ones you want are now at the front and you might have to do some careful manouvers. I think freight working is more intresting than pass

[The Stationmaster]

I agree that when you start out from  the main yard the waggons to be dropped off are in the corect order and at station 1 are at the rear. Drop off 5 pick up 6. and at station 2 the wagons to be dropped off are 7,8,9 etc. At the last station the ones you want are now at the front and you might have to do some careful manouvers. I think freight working is more intresting than pass

The whole idea is that you form the train, and shunt intermediately, so that wagons are always in the right place when you arrive at each station taking into account how that station has to be shunted.  One of my Shunters in a yard back in the early '70s referred to it as 'station order shunting' which is probably as good a term as any and it is what the Marshalling Book should reflect - and usually did except where staff on the ground found a way round it (and the Rules in some cases in order to save even more time.  

 

Never overlook the basic theme of trip freight working and that was to be able to spend as much time on the turn as was possible either in the cabin drinking tea or in a pub' drinking beer or to work a split whereby at one place Driver & Guard did all the work while at another the Fireman and Shunter did it while Driver and Guard were in the cabin, or over the road in the pub, or off down to the chippy to get the grub in for all of them.  Only time it could go wrong was if the Fireman landed the engine in the dirt while the Driver was elsewhere or those going to a pub happened to chose the one the Stationmaster used.

[Dave Scott]

The whole idea is that you form the train, and shunt intermediately, so that wagons are always in the right place when you arrive at each station taking into account how that station has to be shunted.  One of my Shunters in a yard back in the early '70s referred to it as 'station order shunting' which is probably as good a term as any and it is what the Marshalling Book should reflect - and usually did except where staff on the ground found a way round it (and the Rules in some cases in order to save even more time.  

 

Never overlook the basic theme of trip freight working and that was to be able to spend as much time on the turn as was possible either in the cabin drinking tea or in a pub' drinking beer or to work a split whereby at one place Driver & Guard did all the work while at another the Fireman and Shunter did it while Driver and Guard were in the cabin, or over the road in the pub, or off down to the chippy to get the grub in for all of them.  Only time it could go wrong was if the Fireman landed the engine in the dirt while the Driver was elsewhere or those going to a pub happened to chose the one the Stationmaster used.

I fully suport your view that shunting was an inconvinience to be got out of the way to give more time for liquid refreshment. From memory and video evidence shunting speeds were significant. Why then do so many modelers string out shunting manouvers by going as slow as possible.

 

Last friday at the end of a 12 hour shift I had 8 bogies to put away and with a Deltic to tow them out of the platform we used all of the 10mph limit for station limits. The propelling move was slightly more cautious but not pedestrian. I wanted to sign off and get to the King and Castle

[ejstubbs]

Many thanks to everyone who's responded to my question, especially for the insight in to how goods trains were shunted.  Obviously train length (and available space) will be a consideration as the design comes together.

 

I will try to make sure that, on completion of the layout, my shunting is carried out in such a way as to maximise the opportunities for refreshment intake!

 

Probably only shunted by trains heading in one direction and I would think most likely shunted the easiest way - probably by by a Down train working as you surmise.

 

And, fairly obviously, traffic for that station would be formed rear on arrival to simplify, and speed up, the shunting with teh rest of the train left in the Down loop.

 

But it would be worthwhile trying to find a signalling diagram as that would reveal if the layout was signalled for an Up train to do what you suggest.

 

I was pleasantly surprised to be able to find the relevant signal box diagrams online: Wooler South and Wooler North.  Unfortunately I'm not very good at reading such diagrams, but I think there's no way for the Wooler North box to signal an up train on to the down platform.  OTOH, does that mean that I couldn't operate my layout that way, if I signalled it differently?  I'm not aiming to model Wooler slavishly, if I could get a bit more operating interest out of it.

 

The signal box diagrams do include a couple of new gems of information.  Firstly, the spur at the north end of the down loop appears to have run to a goods dock of some kind that isn't clearly indicated on the OS map.  On closer inspection I can see that it probably is shown, although an earlier edition shows what appears to be a wagon turntable on the spur.  Intriguing...

 

Secondly, the road crossings appear to be level crossings rather than bridges, which creates a little more railway interest.  The railway and the road both cross the Wooler Water, though, so the scenery still doesn't have to be boring and flat.  Which is nice.

 

Thinking about that level crossing at the south end gives me another idea: an up train could have stopped past the station, just short of the crossing, and propelled back in to the down loop to then access the headshunt.  Would that sort of thing have been done at all commonly - or even at all?

[Flying Pig]

There are one or two photos of Wooler on Disused Stations.

 

One interesting feature of the signalling diagrams is that there doesn't appear to be a wrong line route signalled through the station from the main in either direction, which suggests that running round was not indulged in.  Surely the North Eastern would have provided fixed signals for such a move?

[Dave Scott]

There are one or two photos of Wooler on Disused Stations.

 

One interesting feature of the signalling diagrams is that there doesn't appear to be a wrong line route signalled through the station from the main in either direction, which suggests that running round was not indulged in.  Surely the North Eastern would have provided fixed signals for such a move?

What is noticable is a complete absence of shunt signals. Wrong line moves for a light engine to run round could have been done by verbal instruction / flags. Its in signalmans rules and I can think of places where this is done..

[The Stationmaster]

Alas the signalling diagrams won't open for me for some reason but a thought crosses my mind - i wonder if there was a shunting horse?

 

Ah, I've now found them on the SRS site and all makes sense - connections into running lines are signalled ad those to/from the yard are in fact fully signalled.  The only thing which seemingly isn't signalled is the two wrong direction moves needed to get the engine of a Down freight back to the right end before departure (and a move into the dock).  As these would have been covered by Signalbox Special Instructions I assume that the NER was satisfied, for once, that fixed signals weren't need, especially as all the running line points had facing point locks/lock bars and the signalling in fact satisfies then BoT requirements.  

 

BTW I am assuming that Signal No.14 at Wooler South read to the neck. 

Edited October 7, 2014 by The Stationmaster

[Dave Scott]

Alas the signalling diagrams won't open for me for some reason but a thought crosses my mind - i wonder if there was a shunting horse?

I found that too so I googled Woller Signal box diagrams and found this website

 

http://www.s-r-s.org.uk/html/lnerdiagrams.htm

 

See p3 of 6

[Phil Bullock]

 Only time it could go wrong was if the Fireman landed the engine in the dirt while the Driver was elsewhere or those going to a pub happened to chose the one the Stationmaster used.[/i]

Which one is that Mike?

 

Think I owe you several pints!

 

Phil

[The Stationmaster]

Which one is that Mike?

 

Think I owe you several pints!

 

Phil

As someone once we reminded me 'Can you remember when we drank in moderation.  And we definitely did, although it now seems to regard itself as something a lot posher

 

http://www.yell.com/biz/the-moderation-reading-5339728/

[Phil Bullock]

Ah yes - think we pass that en route to Henley!

 

Phil

[ejstubbs]

This is all making sense, thanks again to everyone for sharing the benefit of your knowledge and experience.

 

And apologies for the problems with the signal box diagrams; they seem only to be accessible via the page that Dave Scott linked, direct links to the gifs' URLs get blocked.

[The Stationmaster]

Ah yes - think we pass that en route to Henley!

 

Phil

I think you would find The Plowden Arms at Shiplake a better place to stop should you be so inclined Phil (apologies to the OP for mentioning pubs but they often had a close link to shunting at smaller stations ).

[DCB]

As Wooler had North and South signalboxes I would guess that depending on traffic the trains were either signalled into the correct platform or the up goods handsignalled with flag or lamp into the down platform. If aan up goods was to cross another service before shunting it would arrive at the up platform and probably draw forward before setting back into the down platform. It may well be a signalman who worked the box is still around who can tell you how it was operated in reality, not necessarily as the rule book suggests

[ejstubbs]

It may well be a signalman who worked the box is still around who can tell you how it was operated in reality, not necessarily as the rule book suggests

 

That's a really interesting suggestion.  Any ideas how might one go about tracking down such an individual?

[DCB]

Assuming it was operating in the 1960s You could try visiting the local pub (s) and asking around for former railwaymen who worked at Wooler especially signalmen and remember how things were done.  As an alternatively if you are too far away try Facebook, several Wooler Pubs have Facebook pages, maybe you could post a plea for info there?

[ejstubbs]

Hmm.  According to Wikipedia and this web site Wooler ceased to be a through station in 1949, so folks who remember how it used to be operated in the days before then might be rather thinner on the ground.  However, I shall try to persevere.

[Philately]

Having found this topic by accident, herewith my fourpenn'orth.

 

John Addyman and John Mallon's book "The Alnwick and Cornhill Railway", published by NERA, has most of the answers, including siding layout and signalling diagram. There are a couple of things that might help, viz:

 

1. There were 3 passenger trains each way until 1930, when they were withdrawn. So passenger trains wouldn't have got in the way of shunting movements, as the closest timewise would have left at 11.15; see below.

 

2. There was only one through goods per day in each direction and these crossed at Wooler at about 12.30. This I found from analysing the working timetable.)There were others, mostly between Tweedmouth and Wooler. One assumes that train crews swapped locos and worked back to their parent sheds.

 

There were quirks and extras on market days - think cattle trains to Tweedmouth wth steam"auto cars" for the cattlemen.

 

Hoping this may be of interest if not help!

[Philately]

Further to the above post, platform lengths were approx. 100 yards, enough for a loco and12wagons, so trains would have been short. North Northumberland was/is sparsely populated inland, and in any case the gradient was very steep over Alnwick Moor. So short trainscould easily have been accommodated in the over-generous goods yards. This would make shunting a relatively easy business.

[retiredoperator]

Hi Modellers. Please excuse my ignorance. But I always thought that the guards van was the last vehicle on a train, ie at the rear, my question is how did they drop off wagons without leaving the guards-van behind. Happy Modelling Kev  

[Fat Controller]

On 11/10/2014 at 02:26, DavidCBroad said:

Assuming it was operating in the 1960s You could try visiting the local pub (s) and asking around for former railwaymen who worked at Wooler especially signalmen and remember how things were done.  As an alternatively if you are too far away try Facebook, several Wooler Pubs have Facebook pages, maybe you could post a plea for info there?

Funnily, the pub was the first thing that came to mind....

Otherwise, the local newspaper would probably be of use:-

https://www.northumberlandgazette.co.uk/news

or even the local ITV station- https://www.itv.com/news/tyne-tees/topic/wooler/

You could always make a field trip; it's a lovely region

[TheSignalEngineer]

On 07/10/2014 at 14:11, The Stationmaster said:

 

Never overlook the basic theme of trip freight working and that was to be able to spend as much time on the turn as was possible either in the cabin drinking tea or in a pub' drinking beer ....

Not just with the crew. One box I used to do jobs at had been reduced to a crossing frame slotting two signals on a PSB. Around noon each day the length walker would come into the box to eat his sandwiches and have a brew. Meanwhile the signalman would go over the road to the Station Hotel. When the annunciator sounded to warn of  train approaching the lengthman would put a red flag out of the back window and blow a lookout horn. The signalman would go over to work the crossing and when tranquillity was restored return to finish his pint.