chaz Posted November 13, 2014 Share Posted November 13, 2014 There is a third option, which is based on the silly idea that technology doesn't stand still. See http://www.iflscience.com/technology/graphene-based-supercapacitors-could-eliminate-batteries-electric-cars-within-5-years Indeed it doesn't, but I for one reserve the right to ignore bits of innovation that I don't fancy. I suppose it's cards on the table time - I have a considerable investment in DCC with a Lenz control system and a dozen or so O gauge locomotives all fitted with sound chips. I am not against the concept of "dead rails" as the Americans call it IF it can deliver a better performance than I currently get. Why would I want to spend even more cash to get the same or less? So here is a specification which suits me (not in order of importance).... The clever bit that goes in the model loco should only require four wires. Two of them come from a battery. The other two go to the red and black wires of the DCC decoder - the ones that previously came from the loco pickups - that means I don't lose any of the functionality I currently have That clever bit to be no bigger than (say) a 1A DCC sound decoder If it doesn't hook up to a DCC decoder but works on it's own then it must deliver a similar performance to (say) an ESU V4 Loksound - inc' the sound it should work inside a kit-built brass loco without the need for an obvious protruding aerial Battery to be small enough to be accomodated in a smallish OO tank engine (I don't model in OO but it has to be conceded that the O gauge market is just not big enough) - and ideally a small range of battery shapes would be good The controller should look and work like my Lenz LH100 or the Digitrax etc equivalent - I would not want to work with the type of joystick controller designed for the aircraft boys There should be no problem with interference between different layouts at shows Deliver that spec' and I will be at the head of the queue. Now, enough of ifs, buts or maybes. I will have no further interest in wireless control until a working package that can be bought and installed as I bought and installed my DCC system becomes available. And if it doesn't deliver on my spec' then include me out. Fair enough? Chaz Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy Reichert Posted November 14, 2014 Share Posted November 14, 2014 I believe something could happen because technology and business can never stand still if they wish to survive and prosper. One has only to consider the problems facing Nokia, RIMS (makers of the Blackberry) and products like cassette tapes, video tape, CDs, incandescent filament light bulbs, push-along lawnmowers, horse-drawn vehicles and sailing ships. Now, I concede that those opportunities were for products with huge mass markets and the financial dynamics are different, but someone was prepared to take the risk and finance a new way of doing things and it will always happen because that is human nature. Consider some of the revolutions that have occurred in our hobby of model railways: - substitution of clockpower by low voltage DC electric power - the introduction of H0 and 00 after decades of domination by 0 - the indroduction of metal die-casting for locomotive superstructures instead of printed tin-plate - the move from three to two-rail electric traction - in 00/H0 and later 0, the introduction of track with individually moulded sleepers - the supercession of metal die-cast locomotives by plastic injected moulded models - the introduction of DCC All of these innovations required financial and commercial risk, but they were disruptive to the status quo and happened. I also suspect that a wireless system with an effective and small on-board power source could be applied to slot-car racing models thus spreading the cost of R&D. It well may be that we simply have not yet seen the happy combination of technical know-how, risk capital and, perhaps, serendipity necessary to effect this revolutionary change. If it happens, I will be very happy, but if not I can plough on with what currently works and still enjoy my hobby, which, ultimately, is all that matters. Now, back to work on Cwm Bach and chasing the factory for the delivery date for the new version of the Ixion Hudswell Clarke. Regards, But model steam locomotives in the small scales still lack working realistic scale model smoke, working realistic scale model jets of steam, lack any decent bass sound, and have silly fat wheels and and plastic handrails that bend or break off at the least bit of clumsy handling. Model wagons still don't have the rolling inertia or free running (fly shunting) of the prototype, and as as for UK couplers, they still look huge and awful, let alone have any decent form of remote control. Model passenger cars still lack opening doors, sliding or "slam", with dropping windows, and none have any that can be remotely operated either. And neither the coaches nor the wagons characteristically slow sway like their real counterparts. And moulded plastic window edges still show up as "white". So we're actually talking about at least 70 years of technology truthfully only "STANDING STILL" as far as Model Railways becoming more believably realistic, yet the model railway industry has certainly survived, and has even prospered into a "Golden Age" according to some. Somehow I don't see merely duplicating the existing working power and control with something more expensive, yet no better, as "progress", while the major factors affecting realism in appearance, sound and movement are left virtually untouched. Andy Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
flexible_coupling Posted November 15, 2014 Share Posted November 15, 2014 Andy, for someone with such an evidently sunny disposition towards the title subject, you're committing a lot of time and energy to this thread. How about you give it a rest? I'm planning to buy a Freetronics LeoStick this week to test out the native PWM functionality and its' usefulness for controlling 12V loco motors. First step towards testing the vague ideas I mooted a few pages back - http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/91278-no-wires-system-specification/?p=1622543- gotta start somewhere... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RandyWales Posted November 15, 2014 Share Posted November 15, 2014 Hello again... This video was posted on Youtube on October 22nd 2014. For anyone who thinks Bachmann aren't serious about Wireless and Bluetooth should watch and maybe think again. For Constant Power Supply read Battery??? Edit: Oh yes...and O Gauge too! Edit: Added another video Randall Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RandyWales Posted November 15, 2014 Share Posted November 15, 2014 Hi again.... I've picked this up from a US forum... The quote is from one of the BlueRail development team... "At BlueRail we have definitely discussed and made plans for variations with both super capacitors and batteries. These can also be useful in outdoor Garden trains or situations where power is undependable." Randall Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
flexible_coupling Posted November 16, 2014 Share Posted November 16, 2014 I misinterpreted the previous discussion on this Bachmann project. I'm going to hold off a bit on my own efforts after watching those videos! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RandyWales Posted November 16, 2014 Share Posted November 16, 2014 I misinterpreted the previous discussion on this Bachmann project. I'm going to hold off a bit on my own efforts after watching those videos! BlueRail have recently updated their FAQ page....Much more information on their take on things... http://www.bluerailtrains.com/faq.cfm US forums have been very animated on this subject since the videos above were published... http://ogrforum.ogaugerr.com/topic/williams-by-bachman-big-game-changer-byod?page=1 http://www.modeltrainforum.com/showthread.php?t=25159 Randall Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ken Anderson Posted November 16, 2014 Author Share Posted November 16, 2014 Andy, for someone with such an evidently sunny disposition towards the title subject, you're committing a lot of time and energy to this thread. How about you give it a rest? . I enjoy Andy's contributions.It's nice to hear from a professional experienced engineer whether or not one agrees with his comments. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
davetheroad Posted November 16, 2014 Share Posted November 16, 2014 BlueRail have recently updated their FAQ page.... Much more information on their take on things... http://www.bluerailtrains.com/faq.cfm US forums have been very animated on this subject since the videos above were published... http://ogrforum.ogaugerr.com/topic/williams-by-bachman-big-game-changer-byod?page=1 http://www.modeltrainforum.com/showthread.php?t=25159 Randall Interesting reading! for me the important bit is the savvy way Bachmann are leveraging the current 'obssesion' with all things wifi etc to attract the notice of potential customers. Being Bachmann will attract the other vendors and maybe have all these DCC manufacturers panicking a bit? This development will bring the concept into the main stream. Personally I prefer the hands on 3D hardware with knobs 'tactile' approach I have with my current radio controller. You can operate the throttle while looking at the train as well. This is because the product originates with the 2.4Ghz Spektrum technology used by all those millions of model planes and helicopters. Having to stare at a screen to control the model would be as much use to them as a cat flap in a submarine!. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
davetheroad Posted November 16, 2014 Share Posted November 16, 2014 This is the controller i use. You can control the speed and direction with your thumb Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
81A Oldoak Posted November 16, 2014 Share Posted November 16, 2014 Or an ejector seat in a helicopter. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ravenser Posted November 16, 2014 Share Posted November 16, 2014 Would point out that what Bachmann are demonstrating with their E-Z App is not a system which does away with power from the track. It's effectively a wireless DCC system which sends the DCC direct to the decoder via Bluetooth from a software DCC system rather than sending the digital control signal via a black box command station and through the rails. It appears that Bachmann are overlaying their own GUI over the DCC CVs to provide a more user-friendly interface for programming. But the demonstrator states quite explicitly that the track is powered at 16V AC just as with a conventional DCC system . The novelty is that the DCC control signal is not overlaid on the track power but is wireless Therefore this does not meet the basic parameters laid down by Chris Klein - ie dispensing with track power Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ken Anderson Posted November 16, 2014 Author Share Posted November 16, 2014 Dave, I agree. What functions does the hand controller provide? ....and what speed controller do you use with the Spectrum receiver please? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RandyWales Posted November 16, 2014 Share Posted November 16, 2014 Would point out that what Bachmann are demonstrating with their E-Z App is not a system which does away with power from the track. It's effectively a wireless DCC system which sends the DCC direct to the decoder via Bluetooth from a software DCC system rather than sending the digital control signal via a black box command station and through the rails. It appears that Bachmann are overlaying their own GUI over the DCC CVs to provide a more user-friendly interface for programming. But the demonstrator states quite explicitly that the track is powered at 16V AC just as with a conventional DCC system . The novelty is that the DCC control signal is not overlaid on the track power but is wireless Therefore this does not meet the basic parameters laid down by Chris Klein - ie dispensing with track power To repeat...I've picked this up from a US forum... The quote is from one of the BlueRail development team... "At BlueRail we have definitely discussed and made plans for variations with both super capacitors and batteries. These can also be useful in outdoor Garden trains or situations where power is undependable." Randall Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
davetheroad Posted November 16, 2014 Share Posted November 16, 2014 Or an ejector seat in a helicopter.Ouch, bet that hurt! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy Reichert Posted November 16, 2014 Share Posted November 16, 2014 Andy, for someone with such an evidently sunny disposition towards the title subject, you're committing a lot of time and energy to this thread. How about you give it a rest? gotta start somewhere... Again, I'm pro wireless. All forms and for very good reasons. I'm just not interested in battery power when a free source of on-demand, non-decaying, clean power is sitting underneath my set of fundamentally electrically conductive wheels. My only gripe with the pro wireless ideas posted on this and the other RM Web threads, is their lack of a far greater vision and understanding about the possible applications and advantages. A high speed digital wireless net usually connects all devices on it to every other device in both directions,and at the full net data rate, regardless of how those devices are powered. There is therefore the potential to simulate and/or replace every human-human, human-machine and machine-machine interaction process that involves running a real railway. If you only consider that you are doing that merely to "replace DCC", or bypassing too cheap or badly designed track pick-up, you are missing the wood for the trees in a very big way. Andy Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
davetheroad Posted November 16, 2014 Share Posted November 16, 2014 Dave, I agree. What functions does the hand controller provide? ....and what speed controller do you use with the Spectrum receiver please? the controller and receiver are both Deltang products. This is a Deltang Tx-22 transmitter, the various knobs etc are: little red button at top left - for binding receivers to the transmitter or as simple switch in normal use.Say for remote uncoupling. middle top button/light - on off top left knob - select your loco 1 to 12 top right knob - 'inertia', variable acceleration and braking. big knob - direction control and speed with centre off. Or set it to low off and use the middle toggle switch for direction. The Tx uses a standard 9V battery This is the receiver I usually use, a Deltang Rx-62-22-W. It outputs up to 1.5amps at 13V. PWM DC. Input is either battery or DC/DCC track power if you install a bridge rectifier and stay alive capacitor. it also has a magnetic reed switch for switching on/off. you can use a ordinary switch as well. It can also be remotely switched off from the transmitter. There are also outputs for lights, auto buffer stop and reverse, safety low voltage protection for lithium polymer batteries and some other stuff which is a bit techie for me. The Rx65 receiver will handle 3amps at 18V Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
davetheroad Posted November 16, 2014 Share Posted November 16, 2014 Would point out that what Bachmann are demonstrating with their E-Z App is not a system which does away with power from the track. It's effectively a wireless DCC system which sends the DCC direct to the decoder via Bluetooth from a software DCC system rather than sending the digital control signal via a black box command station and through the rails. It appears that Bachmann are overlaying their own GUI over the DCC CVs to provide a more user-friendly interface for programming. But the demonstrator states quite explicitly that the track is powered at 16V AC just as with a conventional DCC system . The novelty is that the DCC control signal is not overlaid on the track power but is wireless Therefore this does not meet the basic parameters laid down by Chris Klein - ie dispensing with track power This is not clear, according to the FAQ in the link "Is this a DCC train? No, but it is compatible with your DCC train set in that you can set it on the tracks and operate it along with your other DCC trains (but you must run it from your smartphone or tablet)." Which implies it might not use DCC protocols at all? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
chaz Posted November 16, 2014 Share Posted November 16, 2014 I have to concede that the system shown in the Bachmann videos will appeal to many and there is nothing wrong with that. BUT I don't see that it offers me a significant improvement in performance to that which I am already getting from a good quality DCC system with excellent sound decoders in all locos. It certainly doesn't seem to address Chris Klein's hopes for an end to pickups, layout wiring, track cleaning etc. Were the Bachmann proposal to be powered from an onboard battery then it might go rather further to meeting both his and my requirements. "At BlueRail we have definitely discussed and made plans for variations with both super capacitors and batteries. These can also be useful in outdoor Garden trains or situations where power is undependable." Should that be carried through into a viable product I will give it serious consideration because it should signal an end to all the stalling and hesitation which can bedevil electric powered model locos. Chaz Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ken Anderson Posted November 16, 2014 Author Share Posted November 16, 2014 Dave, Thank you. That's very helpful to me. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RandyWales Posted November 16, 2014 Share Posted November 16, 2014 I have to concede that the system shown in the Bachmann videos will appeal to many and there is nothing wrong with that. BUT I don't see that it offers me a significant improvement in performance to that which I am already getting from a good quality DCC system with excellent sound decoders in all locos. It certainly doesn't seem to address Chris Klein's hopes for an end to pickups, layout wiring, track cleaning etc. Were the Bachmann proposal to be powered from an onboard battery then it might go rather further to meeting both his and my requirements. Chaz To repeat my repeat....From the BlueRail FAQ http://www.bluerailtrains.com/faq.cfm Will these contain batteries? The boards have connections to accommodate on board power if desired (particularly useful when track power is unreliable or non-existent) EDIT: Sorry Chaz...I added this while you were editing your post Randall Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
chaz Posted November 16, 2014 Share Posted November 16, 2014 To repeat my repeat.... From the BlueRail FAQ http://www.bluerailtrains.com/faq.cfm Will these contain batteries? The boards have connections to accommodate on board power if desired (particularly useful when track power is unreliable or non-existent) EDIT: Sorry Chaz...I added this while you were editing your post Randall Helpful link Randall, and the editing and consequent overlapping of postings is something I've seen before and it's not a problem. Having looked at the FAQ that your link points to the system looks interesting BUT I would definitely want the sound to come from the locomotive, not from speakers under the baseboards and definitely not from the hand-held be it a phone, tablet etc Chaz Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RandyWales Posted November 16, 2014 Share Posted November 16, 2014 Having looked at the FAQ that your link points to the system looks interesting BUT I would definitely want the sound to come from the locomotive, not from speakers under the baseboards and definitely not from the hand-held be it a phone, tablet etc Chaz As would I Chaz....(although offboard complimentary sounds would be okay)... My initial contribution to this thread stressed that I had no intention of going wireless... However, reading the posts on the US forums piqued my interest. Everyone will be aware of my use of Bluetooth for transmitting high quality sounds to my 7mm diesels, but I currently have to control sound and movement seperately. Though this has been much easier than it sounds, I obviously would prefer to intergrate the two functions. BlueRail's stated plans for loco-specific sound packs and onboard sound modules interests me. Bluetooth's capability of two way TX/RX at high data rates (compared to DCC) means that there might be scope for realtime feedback to control sounds and functions such as synchronised steam samples. Much easier to code in a App. And much greater sample capacity on a Smartphone/Tablet than a soundchip. Those are my thoughts in speculation... Randall Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy Reichert Posted November 16, 2014 Share Posted November 16, 2014 . . . . . because it should signal an end to all the stalling and hesitation which can bedevil electric powered model locos. Chaz Have you tried exorcism? Diabolically bad mechanisms never get fixed by having them just baptteryized. Andy Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold traction Posted November 16, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 16, 2014 I've not seen anyone mention Tam Valley depots, radio system. It could be so good as you are using your current DCC system, just sending the signals via airwaves. The issues are as usual battery pack, and having to connect the wireless receiver to the existing decoder. If you have a large fleet of locos, getting enough receivers of different frequency could be tricky! http://www.tamvalleydepot.com/products/drs1deadrailcomponents.html Cheers Ian Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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