Is there a worst mainline than Norwich - Liverpool St

[Londontram]

Got to agree with roythebus although not a regular traveler I have used the line many times and have never had a bad experience I do also use Norwich for local services a lot and always find Norwich staff helpful and polite. That's my two penneth worth. Steve

[Glorious NSE]

If it was an 86 Roy it was more than 4 years ago!

[PhilJ W]

I last used the line regularly more than 25 years ago during the BR era, then I found the staff very helpful and accommodating. The same could not be said for many of my fellow commuters, many were rude, arrogant and ignorant. As I know someone who still uses the service who tells me that things are not much better in that regard.

[mcowgill]

While trying not to get into the banned area of politics, I believe that with East Anglia being mostly made up of safe/large majority parliamentary constituencies has meant that the line has been starved of investment for many years as there's little political incentive to improve things.

 

As a reasonably regular leisure user of Abellio's services the general impression of both the Mk3 and 321 stock is that they are grubby and uncared for.  When you see the standards that other operators are able to maintain their Mk3 stock you realise how poor the Norwich sets are in comparison.

 

The area is desperate for investment, my office backs on to the Felixstowe branch with it's constant flow of intermodal trains to and from the docks.  There is a huge amount of freight that needs to run either along the GEML or cross-country via Ely, the GEML can't cope with the inevitable delays that mixing 70mph freights, stopping passenger services and the 100mph Norwich trains is going to cause on a double track line.  The Ely/Cambridge line doesn't have enough capacity to take much more freight and without the Hitchin - Bedford link doesn't provide an alternative route for many Felixstowe services.

 

The DfT needs to wake up to the fact that GEML and access to from Felixstowe is critical to the national economy and needs investment.   Now don't get me started on the road alternative, the A14...

 

Martin

[Glorious NSE]

If it was an 86 Roy it was more than 4 years ago!

 

Having a dig back, must have been 10+, the Anglia 86 Farewell tour was in Oct 2004...

 

(Edit - bit more digging suggests they ran for nearly a year after the farewell tour!  Last ones in Sep 2005?!)

Edited October 16, 2014 by Glorious NSE

[The Stationmaster]

While trying not to get into the banned area of politics, I believe that with East Anglia being mostly made up of safe/large majority parliamentary constituencies has meant that the line has been starved of investment for many years as there's little political incentive to improve things.

 

As a reasonably regular leisure user of Abellio's services the general impression of both the Mk3 and 321 stock is that they are grubby and uncared for.  When you see the standards that other operators are able to maintain their Mk3 stock you realise how poor the Norwich sets are in comparison.

 

The area is desperate for investment, my office backs on to the Felixstowe branch with it's constant flow of intermodal trains to and from the docks.  There is a huge amount of freight that needs to run either along the GEML or cross-country via Ely, the GEML can't cope with the inevitable delays that mixing 70mph freights, stopping passenger services and the 100mph Norwich trains is going to cause on a double track line.  The Ely/Cambridge line doesn't have enough capacity to take much more freight and without the Hitchin - Bedford link doesn't provide an alternative route for many Felixstowe services.

 

The DfT needs to wake up to the fact that GEML and access to from Felixstowe is critical to the national economy and needs investment.   Now don't get me started on the road alternative, the A14...

 

Martin

Some of this surprises me.  having travelled down to Harwich earlier this year I was pleasantly surprised to see the amount of work being done on infrastructure with a lot of money being spent on ohle renewal and upgrading - if that isn't investment I'm not sure what is as it was clearly something more than normal maintenance.

 

As far as the stock is concerned, reiterating what I have already said, a lot of my opinion on the state of vehicles revolves around poor standards of cleaning.  Yes the Mk3s would benefit from some internal refitting and maybe that is happening with the new livery but there is clearly a lot which could be and should be happening on day-to-day and periodic cleaning which either isn't happening or isn't happening properly' that has very little to do with maintenance and a lot to do with everyday management of standards.  With good methods, well managed staff, and decent supervision MK 3 coaches, even old Mk3 coaches, are not difficult to keep clean and neither is modern m.u. stock.

[caradoc]

And don't forget the new Bacon Factory Curve at Ipswich, built at a cost of £59 million to improve freight operations to and from Felixstowe. If that's not investment I don't know what is !

 

As far as passenger operations go, the GEML only goes to Norwich, whereas other main lines, ie ECML, WCML and GWML, go much further and serve more, and bigger, places. Therefore there will always be a difference in the level of service.

[Fenman]

... the GEML only goes to Norwich, whereas other main lines, ie ECML, WCML and GWML, go much further ...

Quite right: Swansea and Inverness and Penzance are all so much more "important" than Norwich.

 

Paul

[jonathan452]

FYI (has anybody mentioned this yet?) - http://www.abelliogreateranglia.co.uk/blog/2014/09/abellio-greater-anglia-awards-mkiii-carriage-refurbishment-contract-to-vossloh

 

If at some time in the near future the Class 90's/Mk3's are replaced with something akin to the Class 444's then my boss will be in for a nasty shock.

 

As he has got so used to taking a (non folding) bike from Norwich to London and return during the peaks in the DVT.

[Classsix T]

And don't forget the new Bacon Factory Curve at Ipswich, built at a cost of £59 million to improve freight operations to and from Felixstowe. If that's not investment I don't know what is !

Indeed, that's quite a lot of cash for less than a kilometre and a half of railway! Just under 41.7 grand per metre!

 

C6T.

[caradoc]

Quite right: Swansea and Inverness and Penzance are all so much more "important" than Norwich.

 

Paul

 

The point I was trying to make (obviously not very well) is that the GEML ends at Norwich, serving en route what I would class as perhaps only 3 large population centres (Chelmsford, Colchester and Ipswich) whereas the other routes all serve a greater number of, in many cases, larger, places, To cite just a few:

 

WCML Coventry, Birmingham, Wolverhampton, Stoke, Manchester, Liverpool, Preston, Glasgow;

ECML Peterborough, Doncaster, Wakefield, Leeds, York, Darlington, Newcastle, Edinburgh;

GWML Reading, Swindon, Oxford, Bath, Bristol, Plymouth, Cardiff, Swansea.

(And I didn't even need to mention Penzance or Inverness !)

 

Which would perhaps go some way to showing why the GEML is not regarded quite as being quite as important as other routes (although I agree absolutely that this is no excuse for a poor level of service).

 

(Edited to correct spelling)

Edited October 16, 2014 by caradoc

[lmsforever]

Well as promised ,today went from Aylesbury to Harwich first leg as always good run by Chiltern even the circle was running okay got to Liverpool Street and caught the 08.30 to Manningtree the train was packed until Colchester .We had to wait outside Colchester for ten minutes due to signal problems but staff kept us informed as to what was happening ,got to Manningtree and then it went wrong my Harwich train was cancelled had to wait until 11am for next one.The conductor apologised for delay and we arrived on time ,I noted that there are acres of empty sidings at Parkestone do they get used ? Every train I saw on the Norwich line was packed and standing and the people waiting at Stratford was amazing plus the staff I came in contact with were happy polite and very helpful at all times.But the surburban trains looked drab and the white seemed like reject from B&Q and I swear I could see brush strokes ,the grey used by this TOC is not good when it gets dirty.The MK3,s where clean inside if grubby outside don't think they had been washed for a while the ride was good and quiet and every southbound train I saw at Manningtree wasfull   with standees.My train home was full but the staff were again excellent and a cup of Doue Egburt coffee for £1.60, in answer to the poster who said this is not an important line you tell that to all the regular users and house builders who think its a good place to build.The east Anglia route connects into quite a few crosscountry and local routes  so its important to the region and should be upgraded with new stock and the ongoing track and signal work so all in all a good day out.

[trisonic]

Liverpool Street Station is the third busiest station in London after Waterloo and Victoria.

 

It seemed to be well looked after when former Cabinet Minister Paul Channon used to regularly use it to and from Shenfield - I was frequently on the same train late Friday nights. It was the last non-stop to Shenfield in the evening.

 

Best, Pete. 

[Fay Singpoint]

Indeed, that's quite a lot of cash for less than a kilometre and a half of railway! Just under 41.7 grand per metre!

 

C6T.

 

It's all on an elevated formation along with 3 new river bridges.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G1guQjr9_fw

Edited October 16, 2014 by Fay Singpoint

[Glorious NSE]

Plus two new junctions to build and signal, both on very busy routes, one with 25kv to reconfigure....

[lmsforever]

When I was arriving back into Manningtree noticed an oil train heading towards Parkestone Quay hauled by a class 66 in a very odd paint scheme it looked as a child had thrown paint at it although spotlessly clean ,whats behind this livery please?

[Satan's Goldfish]

Sounds like the North Walsham - Harwich oil condensate tanks. Worked by GBRF, the childs livery is this:

 

http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=gbrf+child&biw=1024&bih=600&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=WMxCVO_zBcHY7AaCyoCYCQ&ved=0CAYQ_AUoAQ#facrc=_&imgrc=HTizBQzu_mpduM%253A%3BBSr8oTid2GkYfM%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Ftomcurtisrailgallery.weebly.com%252Fuploads%252F6%252F9%252F0%252F3%252F6903499%252F667206z97beestoncardifftidalscrapcatholme250712.jpg%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Ftomcurtisrailgallery.weebly.com%252Feuroporte-gbrf.html%3B1280%3B852

 

HTH

[Mike Storey]

The point I was trying to make (obviously not very well) is that the GEML ends at Norwich, serving en route what I would class as perhaps only 3 large population centres (Chelmsford, Colchester and Ipswich) whereas the other routes all serve a greater number of, in many cases, larger, places, To cite just a few:

 

WCML Coventry, Birmingham, Wolverhampton, Stoke, Manchester, Liverpool, Preston, Glasgow;

ECML Peterborough, Doncaster, Wakefield, Leeds, York, Darlington, Newcastle, Edinburgh;

GWML Reading, Swindon, Oxford, Bath, Bristol, Plymouth, Cardiff, Swansea.

(And I didn't even need to mention Penzance or Inverness !)

 

Which would perhaps go some way to showing why the GEML is not regarded quite as being quite as important as other routes (although I agree absolutely that this is no excuse for a poor level of service).

(Edited to correct spelling)

 

You are quite right. As one who was involved in major scheme investment proposals in Railtrack and then Network Rail, it was extremely difficult to show decent cost benefit ratios, compared to other parts of the country, on any passenger scheme in Anglia (outside London), if it didn't involve Cambridge, Stansted or Colchester. The bigger bucks were made available for freight, and that work continues as part of the freight spines projects. Electrification works through to Norwich are essential due to life expiry, but new electrification elsewhere in East Anglia is severely hampered by the lack of national grid supply - that alone can entail a delay to any scheme of up to 10 years and add considerable cost if the upgrade is primarily driven by rail needs. Crossrail will significantly improve reliability at Liverpool Street, as did, to a lesser extent, the creation of two extra 12 car platforms at Stratford (plus a much longer freight loop) during the 2012 works. The remodelling of Peterborough and Ely will significantly improve reliability and thus actual capacity of freight moves across from Felixstowe and Harwich (and away from the GE south of Ipswich towards the North London Line).

 

It is not a question of whether funds to be used on HS2 would be better spent on the GEML - they wouldn't as the investment would not produce the return required by funders, even taking into account the potential environmental and social benefits, due to the very limited market compared to elsewhere. East Anglia may have one of the fastest growing regional economies and thus populations, but it started from a very low base. Norwich - London was not even considered worthy of inclusion in the original InterCity sector of BR and was added as a political afterthought (though you won't see that printed in any official history). Very much a Cinderella but not without reason. The same debates are seen in France, multiplied by 20 - many places the size of Norwich, say Limoges, are lucky to get 6 services a day to Paris, and that is being cut soon, due to a massive funding crisis. I'm not trying to say be thankful for what you've got, as I think the SNCF way of doing things is completely nuts, but I would say that you should only expect incremental change at best unless investment rules change radically.

 

As to Abellio / NXEA maintenance - Crown Point is too small and the outbases ill equipped. (one of my 2012 projects was to relocate the old Thorntons Field stabling sidings near Stratford, which were in the way of part of the Olympic Park, - we were amazed to discover that, after a morning peak trip, a Class 90 + 9 + DVT would sit there all day, M-F, with just a sweep through and a vacuum - it then worked a triple and would have just a couple of hours at Crown Point for servicing each night before its morning peak run). Not sure who will pay to solve that. I noticed no obvious difference in the enthusiasm or otherwise of Anglian staff compared to other routes and the operations and customer care directors and management that I knew (and knew well from previous collaborations, right back to BR days for several) were highly motivated and very professional. But that was 3 years ago and counting - not sure if they are still there.

[Spannerman]

I regularly see that 66 passing Caistor St Edmund on the tanks. I'm surprised some enterprising farmer hasn't tried to claim it's scaring the livestock. ;-)

 

Nik

Edited October 18, 2014 by Spannerman

[colin penfold]

many places the size of Norwich, say Limoges, are lucky to get 6 services a day to Paris,

 

Hi Mike, some very interesting information in your post but one thing I need to pick up on. The population of Limoges is140,000. I know little about Limoges but It sounds like a very poor comparison to the compelling case for investment in Norwich. I think you may be mistaking the population figures for the Norwich City Council administrative area which are artificially low due to its narrow boundaries.

 

An estimated 378,320 people live in Greater Norwich - the population has grown rapidly since 2001 and planned growth of around 77,000

people is expected to take place over the period to 2021; an increase of almost 22% on 2001 population figures. Norwich has a huge catchment area - for example there are no stations (not just no stops on the London service) between Norwich and Diss (nearly in Suffolk)  Norwich is the fourth most densely populated local government district within the East of England with 3,480 people per square kilometre (8,993 per square mile.) (google)

 

A regional boss from Network Rail said travelling from Norwich to London by train was like “driving a Morris Minor up the M1”, branding the replacement of our “dated” trains as the key to improved journey times, not him “building a load of stuff”.

 

The Greater Norwich City Deal, the New Anglia LEP and even statements by Central Government show that the area served by the line is due for massive growth expansion. Chancellor George Osborne said: "East Anglia is one of the fastest growing regions in the country and is establishing itself as a world leader in science, technology and manufacturing. To support this growth we need to have modern, efficient rail services and improved connections."

 

There is commitment being shown by the local authorities and the Government to grow the area with major infrastructure schemes including the dualling of the A11. Norwich is the largest City in the UK not connected by dual carriageway to the motorway network so poor investment is not limited just to rail. The commitment is being shown elsewhere ant it sure is time that rail catches up. Norwich is not just the withered end of a mainline serving outer London.

[Mike Storey]

Hi Mike, some very interesting information in your post but one thing I need to pick up on. The population of Limoges is140,000. I know little about Limoges but It sounds like a very poor comparison to the compelling case for investment in Norwich. I think you may be mistaking the population figures for the Norwich City Council administrative area which are artificially low due to its narrow boundaries.

 

An estimated 378,320 people live in Greater Norwich - the population has grown rapidly since 2001 and planned growth of around 77,000

people is expected to take place over the period to 2021; an increase of almost 22% on 2001 population figures. Norwich has a huge catchment area - for example there are no stations (not just no stops on the London service) between Norwich and Diss (nearly in Suffolk)  Norwich is the fourth most densely populated local government district within the East of England with 3,480 people per square kilometre (8,993 per square mile.) (google)

 

A regional boss from Network Rail said travelling from Norwich to London by train was like “driving a Morris Minor up the M1”, branding the replacement of our “dated” trains as the key to improved journey times, not him “building a load of stuff”.

 

The Greater Norwich City Deal, the New Anglia LEP and even statements by Central Government show that the area served by the line is due for massive growth expansion. Chancellor George Osborne said: "East Anglia is one of the fastest growing regions in the country and is establishing itself as a world leader in science, technology and manufacturing. To support this growth we need to have modern, efficient rail services and improved connections."

 

There is commitment being shown by the local authorities and the Government to grow the area with major infrastructure schemes including the dualling of the A11. Norwich is the largest City in the UK not connected by dual carriageway to the motorway network so poor investment is not limited just to rail. The commitment is being shown elsewhere ant it sure is time that rail catches up. Norwich is not just the withered end of a mainline serving outer London.

 

I stand corrected on the catchment Colin, and I was comparing like with like on the city pop, and the wider catchment of Limoges would not match that, due to the existence of stations at Brive and La Souterraine. As you say, growth rate is phenomenal, and I see lots of words from politicians just before a general election, but I see little of that so far translated into RUS plans or franchise requirements, beyond that already announced for the next control period.

 

Whatever the NR person said, new stock with greater acceleration, but top speed limited by infrastructure, will do little in the way of journey times on a limited stop service, unlike elsewhere. I presume the benefit he cites would be between Liverpool Street and, say, Colchester, where it would be useful to match the acceleration profiles of the modern EMU's. However, I suspect this would be translated into more stops at Stratford to better service Canary Wharf etc.

 

The LEP rail content appears to be tiny and much of that seems to be pointed at freight. I wish the region well (I was born in Suffolk!) and hope that the aspirations of many do get converted to something significant. However, given the slug-like approach to the A47 improvements (which had a far greater national business case than a Norwich link road) I remain sceptical. I hope I am proven wrong....

[pete_mcfarlane]

A regional boss from Network Rail said travelling from Norwich to London by train was like “driving a Morris Minor up the M1”, branding the replacement of our “dated” trains as the key to improved journey times, not him “building a load of stuff”.

 

Is he thinking that they could shave a lot of time off the journey by using EMUs with their much better acceleration than loco hauled stock?

[The Stationmaster]

Is he thinking that they could shave a lot of time off the journey by using EMUs with their much better acceleration than loco hauled stock?

Could be but - as Mike has said - the answer is that it won't.  Above about 10 miles or so it is out and out top speed which starts to win back time compared with good acceleration. Thus higher acceleration rates would save not very much between Liverpool St and the first stop at Colchester, would be advantageous thence to Manningtree, and again from there to Ipswich but would then be back down to saving not very much.  Overall a handful of minutes at best.

 

Better acceleration rates might have a  beneficial impact on line capacity east of Colchester by closing the performance gap between loco hauled trains and en emus but that s not necessarily something which improves journey times even though it might suit NR number crunchers.

[colin penfold]

So it probably boils down to buck passing, NR saying the operators could speed up the service and the operators saying it's NR.

 

Funny enough, I don't think speed is the issue. It's reliability and quality for me. If I got on a train where I had a reserved seat and found it clean and actually reserved for my use, I would be happy with the 2 hour journey time. If I booked at the weekend and got a train to take me to my destination rather than part way (without warning) and be dumped out into a wet car park for a ride on a double decker bus only to be dumped out into another wet car park to board a dirty cold 3 car dmu to get home 30 minutes late, I'd be happy. My trip last Sunday was coach one way, train the other. I caught the National Express for half the single fare of the train, and got to London Victoria (much more convenient than Liverpool street for most things) in 2 hours 55 mins. With the drop off in Stratford I could have reached Liv. St. in the same time. Coming home for twice the fare the train took longer - 3 hours 4 minutes for twice the fare and a darn sight less comfortable. If I can't trust them to tell me aout engineering work when I book, future weekend journeys will be by coach for me. Weekdays the trains are more reliable and the coaches less so, due to traffic.

 

I lived at York before Norwich, a two hour journey to cover double the distance to London -  I am not naïve enough to expect that level of investment here. However, the simple things make a big difference for next to no cost - cleanliness, customer service, seat reservations done, proper advance warning of engineering works and planning them to minimise customer disruption rather than maximise convenience for the engineers. That's the benchmark on which I posed my original question - is this the worst mainline. There have been lots of comments here supporting that, and hardly any suggestions of a worst one.

[trisonic]

Last time I caught a train in the UK - from Newark to KX. I had to stand all the way. I’d already stood from Lincoln to Newark. Monday afternoon and not very happy....

 

In the morning I had boarded a train standing at KX and one at Newark and so had seats. 

 

In contrast the last time I went from Newark (NJ - USA) to Boston on the Acela,  they confirmed my seats without having to “book them” - they will not allow standing passengers on the Acela (is what they told me). Dinner (and beer in my case) were included in the ticket cost.

 

Best, Pete.

Edited October 19, 2014 by trisonic