Why not New Electric Freight locos instead of Diesels

[Brian D]

The establishment of a new rail served port not far from where I live and access to the Realtimetrains web site has prompted a bit of train spotting in my dotage whereby, instead of the mundane class 357 emus, I can walk down the road to our station and watch diesel hauled container trains flying through and, I must say, the site is extremely impressive, usually class 70 hauled.

This has made me wonder why, if I recall correctly, there have been no new electric locos introduced to handle freight since privatisation.  The latest diesels are described as being more environmentally friendly but surely any electric loco would be much more so.  I see class 86 electrics usually in pairs down at the Tilbury Docks railhead but these locos date back to the1960s (I assume they have been refurbished since built).

Admittedly some routes suit diesels but much of the network north and east of London is overhead electrified.

Why, therefore, no new electric freight locos?  I would appreciate some insight from anyone in the industry responsible for procuring traction.

Thanks in anticipation.

Regards,

Brian.

[Fat Controller]

The problem with Thames Gateway is that the route to the rest of the UK involves one of two options:-

using the North London Line (electrified), which involves crossing the entire layout at Stratford on the flat; difficult to find paths during most of the day.

using the Tottenham and Hampstead (currently diesel-only), which means diesel traction all the way. 

Until the T&H is electrified (something which is only in the very early stages), it is unlikely that any more freights above those currently electrically-hauled will see electric locos. Even then, there would be the problem that the Thames Gateway is not electrified, even as far as the reception sidings, so that electric locos couldn't take over until Ripple Lane.

There are probably enough Class 92s around that could be fettled up to deal with the traffic from both Thames Gateway and the Haven Ports, but until several major routes are electrified (the afore-mentioned T&H and the route via Bury St Edmunds and March, via Peterborough and Leicester, to Birmingham are the most obvious to me), we're unlikely to see more electrically-hauled freight with existing locos, let alone investment in new traction.

[black and decker boy]

There are many electrically hauled freights and more coming by all accounts but the problem for the FOCs is many of their terminals are away from the wires and their business plan sees it as inefficient and more costly to switch en-route. IIRC the charges for using OHLE make diesels seem competitive in some circumstances. There is also the issue of many cross country routes being diesel only so whilst a decent length of journey is under wires, several segments are not.

 

That said, DRS have ordered a new fleet of AC electrics, the class 88, deliver starts next year. Whether they have any / enough work lined up remains to be seen.

 

The electric spine plan aims to plug some of the gaps in wires and may encourage more freight to go electric though some FOCs seem to have doubts.

[298]

There hasn't been the culture of avoiding Diesel under the wires for ages, and the UK has always lacked a simple Six-axle AC electric and has had to make do with the complex 92 or lightweight Bo-Bos.

 

The DRS 88's are the way forward as they offer a "last mile" diesel engine and current locos are getting very long in the tooth and won't be deemed suitable for electrified spine routes.

[28XX]

Class 77 = simple 6 axle electric locomotive.

[Talltim]

Class 77 = simple 6 axle electric locomotive.

And they used them for passenger trains...

[Clive Mortimore]

With the recent demise of shunters by DB Schenker and the use of the train loco to do the shunting by most freight companies I cannot see them rushing to join DRS with class 88 locos. Apart from the gaps in between the existing electric lines there is the problem of shunting in many yards. OLE is a no- no, where overhead cranes or forklifts are going to be used and 3rd rail where humans need to couple and uncouple wagons is not highly recommended.

[Brian D]

Many thanks Fat Controller, black and decker boy and 298 for the information and interesting perspective.  Much appreciated.

Regards,

Brian.

[298]

Class 77 = simple 6 axle electric locomotive.

Not an AC electric tho...

 

DB(S) must be onto something as they are resurrecting some of their long term stored 90's, despite loosing the Scotrail Sleeper contract and no further use for the Pretendolino after this week.

[Glorious NSE]

With the recent demise of shunters by DB Schenker and the use of the train loco to do the shunting by most freight companies I cannot see them rushing to join DRS with class 88 locos. Apart from the gaps in between the existing electric lines there is the problem of shunting in many yards. OLE is a no- no, where overhead cranes or forklifts are going to be used and 3rd rail where humans need to couple and uncouple wagons is not highly recommended.

 

I agree ref gaps in routes, but we are on the cusp of a vast expansion of the 25kv network, so there will be a lot of freight moves that formerly would only have been partly under wire which will be mostly wired.

 

Ref shunting, I disagree. The 88 should be perfectly capable of shunting it's own train off wire. That's the point of the last mile diesel power...

[Clive Mortimore]

I agree ref gaps in routes, but we are on the cusp of a vast expansion of the 25kv network, so there will be a lot of freight moves that formerly would only have been partly under wire which will be mostly wired.

 

Ref shunting, I disagree. The 88 should be perfectly capable of shunting it's own train off wire. That's the point of the last mile diesel power...

Good point Martyn

[HillsideDepot]

Dutch_Master, on 21 Oct 2014 - 22:15, said:

Refurbishing the 90's with an auxiliary diesel (like the 88's but cheaper)* or pairing them with a diesel (Class 70?) would give optimum flexibility, especially on the 'missing wire' sections and various yards.

 

*All AC electrics have an intermediate DC circuit, usually in the 1.5-3kV range. A diesel powered generator putting out that voltage can easily take over from the transformer (with additional safety measures taken) to power the loco at limited capacity. This is exactly what the 88's will get )

 

The idea of a 90+diesel loco is unlikely to be adopted as many intermodal trains are now at the maximum permitted length for loops. Adding a second loco removes a wagon's worth of revenue from each train, and if its sitting there for most of the journey it might was well be used as the power source. The length issue is certainly important to Freightliner who have just bought 40' flats to avoid wasting 20' on each traditional 60' wagon now that the world market is dominated by 40' boxes. That said, of course, Freightliner's 86s usually hunt in pairs.

 

I do like the idea of the 88s, and as the electrified network expands this type of power will no doubt gain in popularity.

[woodenhead]

Most of the diesels were ordered before a coherent and sustained wiring programme had been agreed and procured by Network Rail. Even with the new spines there are places where diesel power is more appropriate like shunting container trains and as most suitable freight is intermodal then there remains a need for some element of diesel power for which the class 88 is the first locomotive to attempt to answer this quandary.

[farren]

I have a question about electric locos. I was taking to dad a few months back and he said the in some cases a diesel was better as a electric train could not go up hills. He had been watching a tv programme. He couldn't remember what it was and admittedly he can get things mixed up from time to time. However he was convinced that was the case to the point of near argument. I have never heard of this but was wondering if it was true in any shape or form maybe in the past. I can't see why this should be.

[farren]

That's more or less what I thought. I have to admit to not knowing the name of the flambanen.

 

It's just nice to know I haven't gone daft. If only I could find out the programme hes on about to find out what was said

 

Thanks

[298]

...Which goes back to the problem that we have the wrong type of AC electric locos in this country, at this time of year a 90 will be struggling to get over Shap & Beattock because it hasn't got the weight to keep the wheels from slipping, whereas a 66 will also struggle but because it hasn't got the power.

[ThaneofFife]

class 89 anyone lol.

[PatB]

...Which goes back to the problem that we have the wrong type of AC electric locos in this country, at this time of year a 90 will be struggling to get over Shap & Beattock because it hasn't got the weight to keep the wheels from slipping, whereas a 66 will also struggle but because it hasn't got the power.

 

Sounds like the operators need to invest in a few bulk bags of Liquid Lead. As long as they don't glue it in with PVA it'll be fine .

[Joseph_Pestell]

GBRf have also been looking for more electrics.

 

One problem, certainly, is cost at about £4M a time. That is because they will be built in much smaller numbers than Class 66's are.

 

And then there are all the issues about finance. The banks want locos that can easily be used elsewhere if your freight business goes belly-up.

 

But I agree with those who say that what we need is a more basic electric loco that is optimised for freight rather than mixed traffic. That surely can't be so difficult.

[Talltim]

Sounds like the operators need to invest in a few bulk bags of Liquid Lead. As long as they don't glue it in with PVA it'll be fine .

Magnahesion!

[phil-b259]

All this talk of new electric locos is rather putting the cart before the horse so to speak.

 

Yes there are plans to create an 'electric spine' but.....

 

The electric spine project won't start construction until the North West triangle, the GWML and possibly the Trans-pennine routes have been done

Even with the 'electric spine' plans there will still be significant gaps including (as things stand) Sheffield - Leeds / ECML plus the Felixstowe - Nuneaton via Bury St Edmunds route.

Many terminals e.g. Felixstowe will still be "off the wires" so to speak and if the approaches have to be shared with passenger traffic, a 'last mile' diesel engine won't cut the mustard  when it comes to not delaying other trains.

 

Freight operators don't have the luxury of Government backing when it comes to traction purchases (unlike the TOCs) and no sane leasing company is going to invest in heavy haul electric freight locos when as things stand the only real use for them is on the Mossend - Daventry - Wembley - Ipswich axis. (Note that the future DRS build are not pure freight locos and have been ordered with their potential for charter / sleeper / parcel use in mind).

 

When the electrification plans have actually been completed, things may change - but we are talking around a decade before that happens.

[DerekEm8]

It was tried  in late 2004 -2005 by DRS who had 3 class 87s which were re-liveried and tried briefly- but I seem to remember that access charges for AC electrics were dramatically increased about the same time and the locos were returned soon after.

 

87006,87022,87028 Warrington 08 Feb 2005

 

87022,66407 Warrington 30 Nov 2004

 

GBRF also had 87s but I think only for backup for the 325s on Royal mail sevices

 

87014 (unbranded GBRF) Warrington 11 Nov 2004

 

87014,325002,325013,325008 Warrington 17 Dec 2004

 

87028 Warrington 30 June 2006

[luckymucklebackit]

I'm sure I read somewhere that there are stretches of line where the OHLE is incapable of supplying enough power for a heavy freight train, the supply equipment was only designed for light EMU operation.

 

Jim

[Brian D]

I'm sure I read somewhere that there are stretches of line where the OHLE is incapable of supplying enough power for a heavy freight train, the supply equipment was only designed for light EMU operation.

 

Jim

I can believe that.  Using Realtime trains, I took my grandson down to the station at lunch time and we stood and watched in awe as a class 70 roared through with an unbelievably long train of containers behind (I think the website described the train as "diesel loco and 1600 tons trailing).  Despite platform lengthening for 12 car operation, current (pardon the pun) class 357 trains consist of 8 cars during the rush and 4 cars off peak.  I've lived here for decades and I do not recall any major work being carried out to the OHLE.

Thanks again to everyone who has contributed to this thread - this old kettle fan has learn't a lot.

Regards,

Brian.

[ThaneofFife]

access charges increased for ac locos?

wonder why. ill wonder no more if some chinless wonder knows about such matters....