Hornby Mk3 coach gangway ends - why black and white?

[47137]

I have bought myself a Hornby Mk3 coach, the 'open first' in Inter City 125 livery. Running number W41033, and part number (on box) R4444A. Two questions strike me straight away:

 

Q1. The internal and end surfaces of both gangway ends are finished one one side in white, the other side in black. Why is this?

 

Q2. I thought, HST stock did not have buffers. So why are these fitted, am I supposed to pull them off?

 

Details in photo. Thanks for any guidance here.

 

- Richard.

 

[crompton 33]

47137. (hst) class 43 stock do not have buffers ,

[47137]

Yes.

 

Official/manufacturer's-looking photos of the Hornby model R4444 (without the A suffix) in HST livery show a model without buffers too. So "something changed" for the R4444A, a change more than just a new running number.

 

This leaves the white/black gangway ends. If I can find one at the local model shop, I might have a look. Perhaps they are all like it.

 

I do see Mk3's go past here (London to Norwich trains), but I don't know if the gangway ends are different to those of an HST. I can try to spot one at the Liverpool St buffers one day, before I get the paint brush out.

 

- Richard.

[Dagworth]

The white area is a representation of the asbestos(?) rubbing plate of the real thing. see

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_Mark_3#mediaviewer/File:Night_Riviera_SLEP_10612.jpg

it should only be on the end of the gangway connection, it was on the earlier ones!

 

Andi

[Grovenor]

The white area is a representation of the asbestos(?) rubbing plate of the real thing.

And those rubbing plates are not white as seen in the photo. The interior 'doorway area' has been different for different liveries, but I don't recall ecver seeing a white one either.

Keith

[47137]

The rest of the model checks out well against photographs of the real thing. In particular, the grey stripe around the windows extends downwards only as far as the door handles. On loco-hauled stock it was deeper and continued down through the tops of the grab rails. So the only thing really wrong is the buffers, and these pull off easily.

 

- Richard.

[47137]

And those rubbing plates are not white as seen in the photo. The interior 'doorway area' has been different for different liveries, but I don't recall ecver seeing a white one either.

Keith

I always remember the end doors being orange, but memory is fallible and photographs do show a variety of colours for the different liveries. Somewhere there will be a works photo or similar of the end of a HST coach.

 

- Richard.

[Talltim]

The colour of the end doors depends on the interior ciolour of the vestibule as when in the open position the outside of them form the end wall of the vestibule

[YK 50A]

The rest of the model checks out well against photographs of the real thing. In particular, the grey stripe around the windows extends downwards only as far as the door handles. On loco-hauled stock it was deeper and continued down through the tops of the grab rails. So the only thing really wrong is the buffers, and these pull off easily.

 

Hello Richard,

 

Hornby have included the buffers so that you can loosely represent a HST or loco hauled vehicle.  As you have already mentioned, there are subtle (and sometimes not so subtle) differences between the coaches, let alone running numbers, etc.  They are technically different, although there have been some Mk3s converted to loco hauled and Mk3As converted to HST trailers.  I think Jouef are the only manufacturer to have genuinely attempted a loco hauled Mk3 - the FO and TSO.

 

I always remember the end doors being orange...

 

A quick Google search shows white/grey and orange/yellow end doors and vestibules.  As has already been mentioned, this would depend on the interior.  Regarding the rubbing plates, the white is the same as has been incorrectly applied to the Hornby (ex Airfix) Mk2Ds, although it is correct for Mk2Fs when new.  With Mk3s, I think images such as this one might confuse the issue.

 

In short, you are supposed to remove the buffers.  Put it in a rake and you have a fairly accurate HST Mk3 coach!

 

I hope that helps,

Alun

[DaveF]

This Mk3 appears to have a white(ish) gangway ends.

 

http://andygibbs.zenfolio.com/p727474857/h657B68E#h657b68e

 

This has white end doors.

 

http://plumbloco.smugmug.com/Trains/BLS-Great-Western-Tracker-III/i-Hf9fVfV/0/XL/IGMP4263_PoV_150927_GWTracker3_LairaDepot_EmbankmentSidings_2Z11_100514-XL.jpg

 

David

[rs4]

There's loads of detail missing sadly.

 

A foot step at one end under the door.

 

Handrails at each end of the coach near the corner.

 

That's just a start.

 

I've been out on the Chiltern rakes....considering whether I do add some detailing.....

[delticman]

 

 

This has white end doors.

 

http://plumbloco.smugmug.com/Trains/BLS-Great-Western-Tracker-III/i-Hf9fVfV/0/XL/IGMP4263_PoV_150927_GWTracker3_LairaDepot_EmbankmentSidings_2Z11_100514-XL.jpg

 

David

 

David, those doors are a very pale blue to compliment the FGW livery. 

 

Regards,

Geoff.

[47137]

There's loads of detail missing sadly.

 

A foot step at one end under the door.

 

Handrails at each end of the coach near the corner.

 

I do get the feeling that what Hornby have given us is good; but of course they have omitted some details. For example, the circular "device" beside the left-hand door of a loco-hauled coach (as your photo) is presented beside the right-hand door of a HST trailer first. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_Mark_3#mediaviewer/File:BR_Mk.III_HST_TF_No.41127_(6771039099).jpg.

 

(Or, are these things opposite each other on the real thing?)

 

Looking at this photo and your photo, and a few others as well, it looks as though the steps were fitted below the left-hand doors of all HST trailers, and (fairly logically) below both doors of the guard's compartment added on the Western Region HSTs. So the Hornby trailer first needs two sets of steps, at opposite corners, and maybe the jumper cables, and some orange paint on the door lock lights - but it is, as already recorded here, a fair representation of the real thing. The bogies seem to be correct, I'm looking at the foot of the page here: http://www.p4newstreet.com/category/coaches.

 

- Richard.

[Removed a/c]

My Blue/Grey  MK3s came with buffers but they weren't fitted. I think the TGS has fitted irremovable buffers (unless you cut them off), which is weird as it ran in HST rakes which were not buffered. 

[Jeff Smith]

There's loads of detail missing sadly.

 

A foot step at one end under the door.

 

Handrails at each end of the coach near the corner.

 

That's just a start.

 

I've been out on the Chiltern rakes....considering whether I do add some detailing.....image.jpg

Sadly I know very little about modern coach stock (not my era) however this is a great picture for showing direct comparison of 3 bolt chaired bullhead rail and concrete sleepered flat bottom rail....

[Matt]

My Blue/Grey MK3s came with buffers but they weren't fitted. I think the TGS has fitted irremovable buffers (unless you cut them off), which is weird as it ran in HST rakes which were not buffered.

 

Believe this has to do with heritage of the tgs moulding as an ex lima item vs the other Hornby mk3s being Hornby's own development. I guess Hornby prob have ex lima TSO/fo mouldings somewhere but on most part their own is superior. Sure I read somewhere that they amended the Lima restaurant moulding to a different type? I've never dismantled a Hornby mk3 but you may find that the roof pops off the tgs as all lima coaches did, not sure if Hornby's own mk3s were same. M

 

Sorry just rereading this - "pops" is not the word to describe twisting the shell of your new purchase and swearing as attempting to lever the roof off, hoping the glazing doesn't shatter in the process. But the roof is removable on Lima coaches - in fact is only way into interior as floor is moulded solid.

[47137]

The body shell of the R4444A is a one-piece moulding, which unclips from the chassis. There are four clips and they are in line with the bogie centres, behind the body lifting points.

 

- Richard.

[47137]

I am now painting the interior. I did wonder about starting a new topic, but this is as good a place as anywhere to put it and I can always change the title when it has all run its course!

 

As far as I can see, the Hornby model represents a coach between 1993, when the door locks were added, to 1997 or so, when the trains were repainted outside and refurbished inside for the then-new Train Operating Companies.

 

I have found details for the original interior decoration here on the rmweb and plenty of interior shots online of the current FGW scheme, but please could someone tell me, what was the interior colour scheme for the period 1993-97? I am imagining, there was at least one refurbishment between the original construction and privatisation.

 

- Richard.

[deltic79]

These may help:

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=45952

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/27726-br-mk3-interiors/

[Matt]

 

As far as I can see, the Hornby model represents a coach between 1993, when the door locks were added, to 1997 or so, when the trains were repainted outside and refurbished inside for the then-new Train Operating Companies.

 

- Richard.

For fear of stating the obvious, the Hornby model in your OP would not be suitable for that period in that livery. Afaik the blue grey livery on hsts was extinct a while before central door locking was added making this model incorrect for any time period.

M

[47137]

For fear of stating the obvious, the Hornby model in your OP would not be suitable for that period in that livery. Afaik the blue grey livery on hsts was extinct a while before central door locking was added making this model incorrect for any time period.

M

Yes, but it only dawned on me yesterday. The 'swallow' livery was in place before 1993. I have seen a blue and grey livery on coaches with the central door locking, e.g. Wrexham and Shropshire, but not on a HST.

 

I have bought a model of something which never existed, so the best I can hope for is to finish it off to make something which looks nice in the display cabinet. The windows are 'smoked' so heavily that they mask colours on the interior and turn them into shades of grey. On the plus side, it is proving easy to add a gently weathered look based on rs4's photo of the Chiltern coach in post #11.

 

- Richard.

[YK 50A]

I have bought a model of something which never existed...

 

Hi Richard,

 

If you're bothered about these things, you are fortunate.  I am very much in the blue/grey era, around the time that HSTs started to displace the Deltics, so only commenting on models relevant from the mid 1970s through early 80s.

 

Bachmann have a long history of giving incorrect regional prefixes, Inter City branding or otherwise, bogies and even running numbers to their coaching stock.  Bogies are easily changed, but I would say a third to a quarter of their Mk1s and Mk2s have some combination of livery, prefix, branding and number which is incorrect.  Then their Mk1s are wrong from the mid 60s at the latest with end steps and early window frames.  The NCX Newspaper van has facilities for the guard which would have been removed, if you can overlook the fact that the doors haven't been welded.  Regarding Hornby, their otherwise excellent Gresley Buffet is modelled as pre-refurbished which is incorrect for any maroon and blue/grey vehicle.  Their Van Bs and Van Cs have periscopes which wouldn't have been fitted at the time.  That's off the top of my head.

 

What springs to mind is "rule 1 applies" or it gives you/us something to model.

 

All the best,

 

Alun

 

***  EDIT - nothing more than a couple of typos which I only ever see after I've posted the message  ***

[Titan]

My Blue/Grey  MK3s came with buffers but they weren't fitted. I think the TGS has fitted irremovable buffers (unless you cut them off), which is weird as it ran in HST rakes which were not buffered. 

 

 

There were some HST TGS fitted with buffers. at least on the power car end, presumably it made shunting rakes at depots easier. They may have had them removed, could not see any on a quick google search so possibly only appropriate in blue/grey or intercity livery if at all.

[47137]

Hi Richard,

 

If you're bothered about these things, you are fortunate ... <<cut details> ... 

I've filled in the holes from the buffers and painted the underframe and some of the details on the model, and this has made something I'm happy with. Tho' the photograph is telling me to sharpen up some of my edges under a good light.

 

I rather like 'freelance' or 'might have been' schemes, be they layouts or the trains themselves. However, when I bought my Hattons class 14 in Loadhaul livery I knew what I was buying! I do feel slightly short-changed to see something marketed as a model of a real HST trailer first, which has fundamental errors which could be put right by choosing either the right livery or changing the mouldings or both. Especially when the bogies and the body shell seem to be so clearly 'right'. It seems almost silly to invest so much in tooling and then make the model wrong. It is as though the engineering department did the survey and made the model, and the marketing department decided what livery it should carry, and the two never met.

 

At the end of the day, it will go in a display cabinet or possibly on a diorama. If anyone sees it and queries it I guess I can suggest it is for a HST used for excursions.

 

- Richard.

 

[YK 50A]

I agree with all of that, but I think it's a cost thing.  Cheaper to produce a one size almost fits all model than a different tooling for each era.  You get a one off model, like the Bachmann Inspection Saloon, and many people said they would never spend that much on a coach.  The Bachmann Mk1 was so much of an improvement over what came before, who cares about a few coach end steps?  The Hornby Gresley Buffet is such a nice model, you'll live with the wrong windows, or I will anyway.  I'm not sure the Hornby Mk3s are in the same league, I don't know, but it's better than the old one with 7 windows or the shortened 8 window version which superseded it.  Incidentally, the TGS is a modified Lima model so a modern Hornby HST is a bit of a hotchpotch: super detail power cars, a Limby TGS and a few otherwise ok Hornby Mk3s which are a compromise.  For example, the Grand Central Buffets have incorrect windows and roofs, being a bog standard TRFB with a paint job.

 

It would be great to have an unlimited budget or just better modelling skills!

 

Alun