TheWeatheringMan Posted November 5, 2014 Share Posted November 5, 2014 I actually agree with much of what you say. But something niggles me slightly. A visitor at the NRM says that something has the wrong livery. For saying that, he gets a fairly lengthy explanation as to why it is almost impossible to say such a thing and a bit of an RMWeb dressing down. So how can you and I both say that some of the commercially produced paints are quite wrong. All we can say is that to our eyes, they look wrong. The commercially produced paints will probably look perfectly OK to some people. Enough people have bought them and used them over the years. And who are we to say that they are wrong? As you said about my green sample, if they look right to them, then they are right. An interesting discussion and I will think of livery colours quite differently from now on. In future I will just use what looks right to me (such as "my" LNER Green!) and stop worrying if somebody tells me I have something the wrong shade. Tony Hi Tony, In all honesty I cant take issue with anything you say in your post here. As regards the commercially available paints you are of course quite right in the greater number of cases and for the reasons you state - the differing colour perception of individuals as i'd stated in earlier posts. When I made my comment about some of the commercial colours being very wrong I was refering in particular to several that are so wrong that they will never look right to anyone - and believe me Tony there are some colours that are that wrong but whilst I would like to publish a list of them, discression rather prevents it, although if i'm asked directly about any colour I will make a comment that should enable the questioner to realise what i'm saying. I ahould add that these are colours that i've subjected to computer comparison and not only 'eye'. That said the colours concerned really are way out and I really dont think anyone would accept same if shown a comparison with a known best possible sample - the problem is of course that that oportunity isnt often there for many and so the colours continue in use by modellers. Perhaps its the old saying 'ignorance is bliss'. Your decision is something that cannot be faulted for your personal modelling - as I said if it looks right to you thats what matters for you even if that does not quite accord with anothers findings or opinions. My main concern is to try and ensure the accuracy of historical record as far as possible but at the same time that object must and does allow for what an individual feels looks right to them. It will never be possible for everyone to agree on a colour but as long as the colour is accuratly recorded as far as possible for history then variations caued by individual eyesight will not cause harm. Best Regards Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sp1 Posted November 5, 2014 Share Posted November 5, 2014 An additional problem with accurate paint colours is the availability of the appropriate pigment to make them. Many pigments are no longer available due to toxicity - some of the pigments used for paint manufacture were far more toxic than lead. Another interesting point to consider - the availability of pigments to manufacture paint (of any kind) is largely driven by the automotive industry: if a car colour goes out of fashion it sometimes makes the manufacture of a particular pigment unviable in a commercial sense, so that pigment simply ceases to be manufactured. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheWeatheringMan Posted November 6, 2014 Share Posted November 6, 2014 An additional problem with accurate paint colours is the availability of the appropriate pigment to make them. Many pigments are no longer available due to toxicity - some of the pigments used for paint manufacture were far more toxic than lead. Another interesting point to consider - the availability of pigments to manufacture paint (of any kind) is largely driven by the automotive industry: if a car colour goes out of fashion it sometimes makes the manufacture of a particular pigment unviable in a commercial sense, so that pigment simply ceases to be manufactured. Hi, Your points are of course correct and have been covered in detail in several of my previous posts. As a paint chemist involved with research into old liveries this aspect was always one of the most difficult things to deal with (loss of old pigment that is). In the professional paint world pigment toxicity does'nt have much bearing. Pigment production is not driven by car paint manufacture - in fact the reverse is true. In recent years one of the biggest driving forces has been the wish to duplicate the colours from the graphics/printing world, ie, Pantone for example. The resulting larger range of colours has given the automotive industry a greater choice as a result. Regards Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
synthnut Posted November 29, 2014 Share Posted November 29, 2014 Hi, Feeling a little guilty about perpetuating the colour discussion on a thread about the NRM, which I've failed to visit but my 5 year old son spoke highly of on his recent visit... One thing that's not been mentioned in relation to colour perception in gloss level. In my experience the level of gloss on any finish can have a massive effect on the apparent colour and also how the surroundings influence it's perception too. With Pantone references, these are even specified between coated and uncoated for the base material as this will effect how any given pigment will behave on a substrate. Similarly with undercoats for paint, these can hugely alter how the "correct shade" of colour XYZ will behave. Yet another factor is also scale, which changes how we perceive colour in it's surroundings. The ratio of the coloured object to the background will alter how the brain "see" a colour. You can analyze how a given sample of paint behaves under an a spectrometer, but this alone does not mean you can make a paint that will behave in the same way when applied in different situations. Pigments reflect and absorb light and so the transmissive effect of binders and surface gloss levels will massively alter the way what is effectively the "same colour" behaves and this can alter considerably over time. Change the light's colour balance depending on the time of day, cloud cover, artificial light source etc and you end up with the same colour chip looking like a hundred shades! Different pigments used to make paints may also give a specified colour under a particular light but may diverge in the way the behave under different spectral illumination. So, colour's just too subjective to be nailed down in any simple way for sure... I bought some RAL 5020 blue (supposedly BR blue-ish) in emulsion from Dulux and some custom mixed Acrylic aerosols a while back, same colours? Not a chance...! Oh, and both mixed by computers from a supposed "standard" Did either look the same as Hornby or Bachmann, nope! When it comes to modelling, you can really only try to make it feel right for yourself, if others want to differ, they can do it themselves. Trying to get a definitive specification for the preservation, tricky indeed. Nowadays, you can mix paint using a set of ultra-accurate digital scales, but how was it done back in the days of the LMS and GWR etc? Mixing paint by weight also relies on the pigments being consistent, which back then was not a forgone conclusion either. I've had car body paint mixed to a chip only to find it totally wrong somehow. I'm sure paint colours were always as much art as science, a movable feast for sure. It's our obsession with digits that's perhaps misplaced, these things were never intended to be so scrutinised! Just my three and six worth ;-) Ben Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
60800 Posted December 2, 2014 Share Posted December 2, 2014 To put a spin on this, witnessing complaints in the NRM about a livery being a shade too dark, or the lining being 1/4 of an Inch higher than it should be, there are those who occasionally populate the NRM, pretending to be 'experts' to their wives, kids or grand kids... Experts who are completely and utterly wrong. Green Arrow has been mentioned a few times in this thread for her livery (of which I had no indication was incorrect, including my assumption that Morayshire simply wore Darlington green, not to my tastes, but again no problem to my eye). I've witnessed people walking up to 4771, blankly staring at the nameplate and turning to 'insert relative' and saying 'this is the flying Scotsman you know, 'insert relative' drove this'..... To an 'ooh' from whoever was being told it and an exasperated sigh from me. I'm not rude or heartless enough to chip in and correct them though. It's nice to occasionally hear comments that are correct, especially if it's some obscure fact about, say, a type of axlebox or mentioning that 6229 is the loco that went to the US with Coronation plates Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rumblestripe Posted February 27, 2015 Share Posted February 27, 2015 On the subject of colour perception, you might have been aware of this photograph causing a how-de-do on Twitter White and Gold or... Blue and Black? So don't let anyone tell you that NER green is too yellow! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pointstaken Posted February 27, 2015 Share Posted February 27, 2015 I looked out of my window today, and noticed that the sky had definitely been weathered the wrong shade of blue. You just can't trust the meteorologists these days. Dennis Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Poggy1165 Posted February 28, 2015 Share Posted February 28, 2015 Somewhere in the house I have a copy of a letter from Percy Banyard, who was a Locomotive Inspector. Mr Banyard was old enough to remember pre-group times, and he said that he recalled seeing a whole shed full of GCR locos, no two of which were exactly the same shade of green. (I think Leicester was the shed involved, they had mostly passenger locos.) I'm sure there are (and were) all sorts of factors involved, from colour chemistry to an individual's own perception of colour. But I am wary of anyone who says that he knows exactly what colour something was X years ago. Even if you have a tin of prototype paint, it might well look different on a model to how it would look if you applied it to the real thing. At best, it would only be 'right' for something just out of shops, that hadn't been varnished yet. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Fitness Posted February 28, 2015 Share Posted February 28, 2015 I think this was the best match ever for GW middlechrome green JF Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bulleidnutter Posted February 28, 2015 Share Posted February 28, 2015 And my o my didnt BR black suit her..... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
royaloak Posted March 1, 2015 Share Posted March 1, 2015 re 'that' dress, on my desktop it is white and gold but on my mobile it is blue and black, it all depends on the colour rendition of the device. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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