Just supposing

[detheridge]

Hi folks,

elsewhere on rmweb there are absorbing discussions on locos that might have been, or even lines that might have been.

Reading around the web and various books, my over active imagination has come up with the following what ifs:

Just suppose that the Metropolitan Railway had stayed independent for a few more years (an analogy similar to the fact that the SDJR didn't get taken into the big four until 1930)?

I read somewhere that new Met stock was being considered for a service along the GCR as far as Nottingham. That would man the 2-6-4ts would really come into their own on services such as these. In addition, just suppose that the Met extended services to Oxford via Verney Junction, and for Peter Denny fans, just suppose Buckingham had been a Met terminus rather than his idea of a GC line (after all, Buckingham GC does have a branch service to Verney Junction)?

If nationalisation hadn't happened, how might the Met have looked by the 1950s? Might there have been Met expresses working from Marylebone, with tender locos based on existing designs? After all, the K class tanks were tank versions of Woolwich Moguls. Might tender versions have existed for longer runs, and Met/GC joint line working be extended to all sorts of new places?

LT bought ex GW Panniers in the 50s/60s to replace aging Met designs. From correspondence on the web, some have remarked that they also tried out a J52 from kings Cross -that turned out to be completely knackered. What if BR had sent a decent one and LT had decided to try a brace of condensing J52s for Widened lines use. Supposedly, the powerful Ivatt 2-6-2 tanks were also considered (in fact, some were earmarked for the Isle of Wight lines when the O2s were getting time expired). Just suppose the the Met or LT later on had chosen those instead of Panniers?

 

Then look at the Northern Heights branches. The Met took over the GN&C, so suppose that the Met arranged with the LNER to take over the Alexandra Palace and High Barnet Branches. Imagine an all electric service to Moorgate, with interchanges at East Finchley and Finchley Central with the Northern line, who then doubled the ex GNR line to Mill Hill and Edgware, connecting with the other Northern line via Golders Green, and the extension out to Bushey Heath. Remember that the Met prided itself on being a common carrier line - might we have seen Met goods services to the branches as well as LNER ones? The Met had the sole surviving Camel back loco at Drayton Park on the GN&C - imagine Met electric locos on the Northern Heights on goods services.

Anyone have any other potential scenarios? What a great layout any of these would make!

 

Best wishes,

 

David.

[LU_fan]

I'm actually planning a module of Highgate High Level as a Northern Line station, but your idea of the Alley Palley branch as a Met line sounds like it could be an interesting choice aswell.

[PhilJ W]

The MET Bo-Bo's were used on freight services. I have seen a picture of one hauling a train of Warwells loaded with Sherman tanks. This was during WW2 when many railway workshops were doing war work. 

[James Harrison]

EJS Gadsden in his book 'Metropolitan Steam' of 1963 mentions (once, and then in passing) a proposal for a Met 4-4-2 tender loco for working a putative Baker Street- Nottingham service.  Quite what this would have looked like he doesn't say; but being described with the big tanks perhaps hints at it being considered as a rebuild of the Woolwich moguls much like the K class. 

 

When it comes to 'what if' schemes I think that the proposed extension of the Brill Tramway to Oxford (terminating by the Cherwell at Magdalen Bridge) could make for quite an interesting model; this assumes of course that the Met could make a go of it (with the extension to a major town surely then the Brill Branch would have merited upgrading to something approaching a mainline and services to match?)

[PhilJ W]

EJS Gadsden in his book 'Metropolitan Steam' of 1963 mentions (once, and then in passing) a proposal for a Met 4-4-2 tender loco for working a putative Baker Street- Nottingham service.  Quite what this would have looked like he doesn't say; but being described with the big tanks perhaps hints at it being considered as a rebuild of the Woolwich moguls much like the K class. 

 

When it comes to 'what if' schemes I think that the proposed extension of the Brill Tramway to Oxford (terminating by the Cherwell at Magdalen Bridge) could make for quite an interesting model; this assumes of course that the Met could make a go of it (with the extension to a major town surely then the Brill Branch would have merited upgrading to something approaching a mainline and services to match?)

There was a proposal by the Oxford and Aylesbury Tramway to build a line to Oxford incorporating the Brill branch. 'The Brill Tramway' by Bill Simpson has details.

[Roy P]

 

Anyone have any other potential scenarios? 

 

 

I have a book "Railways of Hertfordshire" published by the Hertfordshire Library Service that covers in a fair amount of detail, the history of the lines proposed and built and many of those that did not get the necessary approval or funding.

Many of these go back to the "Railway Mania" and therefore pre-date the Metropolitan Railway and it's connections.

One of the more interesting and ambitious proposals was "The Metropolitan Junction Railway". The book tells of the route and the towns it would have served.

If you think of the M25 orbital motorway but as a railway running from around Staines via West Drayton, Uxbridge, Rickmansworth, Watford, St.Albans, Hatfield, Hertford and then through Essex to the Thames Docks in the Tilbury area you get the idea!

History shows that many of these places were eventually railway connected in piecemeal fashion but never as a through route. Something that may have proved useful even to this day.

If this line had been built, it would have pre-dated many of the lines that were actually built and would have a considerable effect on London's outer suburban railway map as we know it.

 

Another detail that has always intrigued me, especially when considered in tandem with the MJR, is the original preferred route though Watford that Robert Stephenson had to abandon.

 

That is to say, through the Gade Valley rather than the Oxhey Ridge, Bushey curve and Watford tunnel alignment. Draw a straight (ish) line on a map between Hatch End and Apsley on the WCML.

Note where the line would have passed through or near Watford. Add in the GJR coming in from the Uxbridge/Ricky direction and proceeding toward St.Albans/Hatfield.

Then consider how to best place the Metropolitan Railway from Baker Street to Chesham in to the scheme at "Gade Valley Junction" (as I like to call it).

The proposed Bushey/Oxhey to Finchley line (from the same book) adds a bit more interest.

 

With the arrival of the Great Central Railway things start to get a bit complicated.

The laying of the "Watford D.C./Bakerloo lines" along the WCML is also going to happen.

...and the Croxley paper mill, Benskins Brewery, the North Watford industrial areas.

Those who know the history of the area will realise that "the Grove" will have to go and the LMS boys will need somewhere else to work

 

"Gade Valley Junction - MJR" has always been my favourite  "Just Supposing" and I have used a lot of sketch paper on it.

One day a bit of it might end up on a baseboard but for now I'm helping out on a model of a  "supposed" stretch of Metropolitan line in the Northwood area.

The "Artistic Director" believes the layout will portray trains heading to Watford or Amersham in the accepted manner. I might allow myself the fantasy they are about to cross "Hampermill Viaduct" Appologies to any one in the Moor Park / Sandy Lodge area: Your home no longer exists.

 

RP

 

Edit: Come to think of it! -as I've just heard the Sandite on the Abbey Line, I'm not sure mine does either 

[Trevellan]

 

Quote: "Supposedly, the powerful Ivatt 2-6-2 tanks were also considered (in fact, some were earmarked for the Isle of Wight lines when the O2s were getting time expired)."

 

 

An interesting thread and the type of topic that I still hear debated by transport planners. What if...?

 

However, I must briefly go into pedant mode and point out that the locos considered for the Isle of Wight were, in fact, the BR-built 84000 class. In fairness, these were almost identical to the Ivatt design.

[Strathwood]

 

Quote: "Supposedly, the powerful Ivatt 2-6-2 tanks were also considered (in fact, some were earmarked for the Isle of Wight lines when the O2s were getting time expired)."

 

 

An interesting thread and the type of topic that I still hear debated by transport planners. What if...?

 

However, I must briefly go into pedant mode and point out that the locos considered for the Isle of Wight were, in fact, the BR-built 84000 class. In fairness, these were almost identical to the Ivatt design.

 

One of the Standard 840xx even went to Eastleigh for inspection by the powers to be.

 

As an aside just supposing the District Line had been extended from the original Hounslow Town station out towards Richmond and Twickenham as they had thought of doing. This was the spur that came off just before Hounslow East when the line carried on towards Hounslow Barracks later Hounslow West. The LSWR were not amused and objected to the possible intrusion of the District Railway. In the end the coming of the London United's trams put paid to Hounslow Town station, the building later being demolished to become Hounslow Bus Garage. The original station was a high level affair, assuming the line would have to gain some height to cross over the LSWR's line which would have been half a mile ahead. That's one I have mused over once or twice for modelling, has anyone else considered it by chance.

 

Kevin

[PhilJ W]

Another possible extension I considered as a model was when the line from Barking was quadrupled to Upminster in the early 30's the same perhaps could have been done Barking to Rainham to serve the then new Fords factory at Dagenham with perhaps a depot at Mardyke. This would come under the auspices of the Metropolitan via the Hammersmith & City. You could then operate trains of CCT's hauled by the MET Bo-Bo's and boat trains (for Tilbury) with a loco change at Mardyke or Rainham.

[Gwiwer]

In this "what if" universe it's worth considering that an independent Metropolitan Railway might have seen what was going on at a small field called Heath Row and taken some initiative.

 

A short link at Uxbridge would have seen the GWR Vine Street branch taken over, electric services provided along the very busy Uxbridge - Cowley - West Drayton corridor (even if the WR trains weren't packed the buses were and are to this day) and having passed beneath the GWR main line at West Drayton then assumed responsibility for the Staines West branch.  

 

As air travel grew the Met then saw fit to build a link line into the airport from Poyle.  With a triangular junction somewhere around Stanwell Moor the main service then ran into the airport with an airport - Staines West shuttle.

 

Electric trains to the airport long before the Metropolitan District or Piccadilly & Brompton rivals ever thought about digging up Bath Road and extending from Hounslow!

[GoingUnderground]

Some more Metropolitan What If's

 

Stanmore station takes advantage of the topography and is below ground level. Suppose the Met had extended northwards to Watford Junction, via Bushey Heath. Elstree depot could have taken over from Neasden.

 

The Northern Heights scheme could then have been a Metropolitan scheme, as other have already pointed out, the GN&C was operated by the Met up to the formation of the LPTB, with Elstree depot replacing Neasden. The Northern line could still have operated the High Barnet branch, to keep things simple. Elstree depot could even have replaced Acton as the main Heavy Overhaul works as Met, District ( via Baker Street, Circle, Bakerloo ( via Watford Junction ), Northern ( via East Finchley ) and Piccadilly, (via Rayners Lane and Wembley Park ) stock could all have reached it.

 

Another idea - The GC route was electrified beyond Sheffield Victoria through to Marylebone and the Met line quadrupled between Harrow and Moor Park, with passing loops at Chorley Wood, and Chalfont. We could have seen Met Bo-Bos running under the wires between Harrow and Amersham or even Aylesbury, with EM1s an EM2s travelling in the other direction - Metropolitan Vickers Rules!!!

 

I like Gwiwer's idea about the Heathrow Extension. It might have meant double tracking from Harrow to Uxbridge for fast running non-stop from Finchley Road to Uxbridge for the Heathrow services, or building loops the allow the fast services to pass. Ruislip station always seemed to me to have been built to allow just that possibility, with space on the south side of the station for the loops, and the reverse curve at the Ruislip Manor end of the station to allow access to the loops. Even the road overbridge has second span to accommodate the loops.

[Martino]

My late father was convinced that there was a plan to extend the Piccadilly line to the Three Tuns crossroads at Slough!

[metmangraham]

Wow! I like the Heathrow link plan and other ideas which follow on from it. And I thought my combination of the two former Uxbridge GWR branches with the LT lines to Uxbridge into 'Uxbridge Central' was an adventurous 'alternative universe'!

[detheridge]

Many thanks for the ideas and info folks -very interesting. Of course I forgot the scenario from the early days of the Met where they had the opportunity to acquire the District itself. A 'Greater Met Railway' would have been something else indeed!

And of course you could imagine that the Met took over the GWR branch to Windsor to avoid the loco changes at Paddington....

 

Best wishes,

David.

[Gwiwer]

 

 

I like the Heathrow link plan and other ideas which follow on from it.

 

It certainly has more traffic potential than Brill

[Joseph_Pestell]

My late father was convinced that there was a plan to extend the Piccadilly line to the Three Tuns crossroads at Slough!

One of the options looked at a few years ago for access to Heathrow from the West was an extension of the Piccadilly to Slough.

[PhilJ W]

Many thanks for the ideas and info folks -very interesting. Of course I forgot the scenario from the early days of the Met where they had the opportunity to acquire the District itself. A 'Greater Met Railway' would have been something else indeed!

And of course you could imagine that the Met took over the GWR branch to Windsor to avoid the loco changes at Paddington....

 

Best wishes,

David.

The District was kept separate from the Metropolitan by Parliament to stop the Met having a monopoly. There was no love lost between the two companies largely due to the animosity of the respective CEO's.

[detheridge]

Just looking at the next subject down (Epping-Ongar End of Tube event), amongst my railway vids is one on the history of the Underground, with a section on Epping Ongar. There's footage of enthusiasts at Acton Depot (circa late 80s/90s at a guess?) inspecting older stock with a view to preservation and use on the Epping Ongar line.

So just suppose the EOR became the country's (world's?) only preserved electric railway?

Does anyone know why it didn't happen? According to the video, there was one road bridge too low for anything other than tube stock to go under, but obviously this is not the case with the present day EOR.

 

Best wishes,

David.

[GoingUnderground]

It may be short, only 3 kilometres, and metre gauge, but the Blonay Chamby line, attached to the Blonay Chamby Railway Museum, above Vevey on Lake Geneva in Switzerland, is fully electrified. There may be other preserved electrified lines, but that's the one that springs to mind for me.

[LU_fan]

Just looking at the next subject down (Epping-Ongar End of Tube event), amongst my railway vids is one on the history of the Underground, with a section on Epping Ongar. There's footage of enthusiasts at Acton Depot (circa late 80s/90s at a guess?) inspecting older stock with a view to preservation and use on the Epping Ongar line.

So just suppose the EOR became the country's (world's?) only preserved electric railway?

Does anyone know why it didn't happen? According to the video, there was one road bridge too low for anything other than tube stock to go under, but obviously this is not the case with the present day EOR.

 

Best wishes,

David.

 

Is it the Arts Magic video by any chance? I've got that one, and i love it. Only thing that bothers me is that in some places in the video there are two narrations at the same time.

 

It wouldn't be the only preserved electric railway in the world, we've got atleast one here in Sweden. But it may very well have been the only one in the UK.

As for the bridge that was too low, i seem to remember reading that they lowered the track bed so they could use standard BR DMU's on the line.

[Pacific231G]

 

 

When it comes to 'what if' schemes I think that the proposed extension of the Brill Tramway to Oxford (terminating by the Cherwell at Magdalen Bridge) could make for quite an interesting model; this assumes of course that the Met could make a go of it (with the extension to a major town surely then the Brill Branch would have merited upgrading to something approaching a mainline and services to match?)

It has! I saw "Oxford Victoria" at the Didcot show a few weeks ago. The Oxford "Municipal Restaurant" where I used to eat was about where London Transport's Oxford terminus would have been. In truth I suspect the University would have put the mockers on the whole scheme as it would have involved some of their land.  I've just been looking at the potential route and can't see why a mile long tunnel would have been needed.

[Pacific231G]

 

It wouldn't be the only preserved electric railway in the world, we've got atleast one here in Sweden. But it may very well have been the only one in the UK.

 

Ahem. Volks Electric Raiway?

[PhilJ W]

I don't think current legislation would allow a preserved line to operate a third/fourth rail electrification. The cost of presenting a safety case would cost too much for a fledgling preservation society to afford. The Volks Electric Railway has 'grandfather rights'  as does one or two pier tramways but the rebuilt Southend Pier Railway opted for diesel power. The only other scheme for preserved third rail preservation has been the Bluebell Railway extension and things appear to be very quiet on that at the moment.

[LU_fan]

Ahem. Volks Electric Raiway?

 

Never heard of it. But my knowledge of British museum railways is pretty limited.

[PhilJ W]

Never heard of it. But my knowledge of British museum railways is pretty limited.

http://www.volkselectricrailway.co.uk