Foreign wagons

[corneliuslundie]

I fancy some wagons from "foreign parts" on my GWR/Rhymney joint line. I am happy to justify visitors from the LNWR, Midland, North Stafford, Cambrian and the southern and major joint companies, but I would like to be able to justify occasional visitors from further away. Any suggestions for legitimate traffic from Scotland and the north of England to a south Wales mining valley? From, for example:

Highland Railway

Caledonian Railway

GNSR

GSWR

North British Railway

North Eastern Railway

Maryport & Carlisle Railway

Furness Railway

Workington & Cleator (did they have their own wagons?)

Hull & Barnsley

LDECR

 

I don't think the village could eat a whole van of fish!

 

Jonathan

[buffalo]

You don't mention a date, but this may be of some use, at least for relative numbers, though it does postdate the early common user agreements.

 

Nick

[Quarryscapes]

I fancy some wagons from "foreign parts" on my GWR/Rhymney joint line. I am happy to justify visitors from the LNWR, Midland, North Stafford, Cambrian and the southern and major joint companies, but I would like to be able to justify occasional visitors from further away. Any suggestions for legitimate traffic from Scotland and the north of England to a south Wales mining valley? From, for example:

Highland Railway

Caledonian Railway

GNSR

GSWR

North British Railway

North Eastern Railway

Maryport & Carlisle Railway

Furness Railway

Workington & Cleator (did they have their own wagons?)

Hull & Barnsley

LDECR

 

I don't think the village could eat a whole van of fish!

 

Jonathan

 

Whilst I've no idea what they were carrying, there are a fair few photos of very distant companies' wagons running over Cambrian metals. They always seem to be open wagons, so perhaps with a tarpaulin over the top you could run who's ever you fancy and not have to justify it! 

[John_Miles]

Have you thought of farm specials? Railways used to move entire farms (not the land obviously) but animals, machinery etc.I have read somewhere of a farm moving from Wales to Scotland, so why not the reverse?

[Spitfire2865]

I only have a limited knowledge on LMS companies, but for a midland region, I cant very well justify HR or Caley, . So Id probably forget those unless info turns up. Furness you could maybe push, but for a mining colony, I dont think youll excuse it easily.

[buffalo]

I only have a limited knowledge on LMS companies, but for a midland region, I cant very well justify HR or Caley...

Really? Take a look at the link in my post above and try to explain how some them got to Bristol.

 

Nick

[Spitfire2865]

Really? Take a look at the link in my post above and try to explain how some them got to Bristol.

Nick

Fair enough. I guess you could justify anything as long as its load is vague enough.

[Talltim]

but I would like to be able to justify occasional visitors from further away.

Does this mean I have to scour the internet for more obscure pre-grouping wagon kits for Christmas?

[Dave Scott]

If you start with the premis that railways were the preffered method of long distance delivery pre WW2 and for a short period after then virtually any wagon could appear anywhere. Assuming a wagonload delivery it is unlikely that reloading would be undertaken. Therefore if a delivery to the valley originated in Highland teritory, loaded into a Highland wagon and worked from yard to yard until it arrived at its destination. a highland wagon might well appear.

[Tin Turtle]

Set it in the Great War - job done!

[burgundy]

Not immediately relevant to the Rhymney, but the following analysis was carried out by Jonathan Abson and published in the Brighton Circular rather a lot of years ago. It was based on the goods traffic data for Sheffield Park for the period 30 Nov 1899 to 31 March 1900. During that  period, 702 wagons passed through the yard, of which 634 belonged to the LB&SCR. The balance was made up of 25 POs, 18 Midland, 10 LNW, 6 GN, 3 SECR, 2 NE, 2 GC and one each from the NS and GE. Of the foreign wagons, 28 were carrying coal. 

Jonathan's conclusion was that, if your layout were to have 20 wagons, 14 would be Brighton opens, 3 would be timber wagons (either single or double bolster), 1 would be a van or cattle van, 1 would be a PO and 1 would be a foreign wagon. I am afraid that this does not help to argue for large numbers of exotic visitors!

Just to put this into context, Sheffield Park station served Sheffield Park itself, Fletching village and Turner's timber yard (which explains the 95 timber bolsters). As a rural area, the local community might have been expected to be pretty self sufficient, with agricultural produce leaving the station. Sheffield Park itself (the big house) might have generated some more interesting traffic, as the owner was frequently visited by the Prince of Wales, hosted visiting international cricket teams and also hosted “Volunteer (territorial army) Field Days". 

I can provide the detailed breakdown if anyone is interested, but the table refused to format in this message. 

My apologies if I have not helped to provide your excuses.
Best wishes
Eric

[CKPR]

The Cleator & Workington had two types of wagon , one being dumb buffered, but both of these seem to have only been used within West Cumberland and down into the Furness area. M&CR wagons , on the other hand, do seem to have occasionally been worked out of Cumberland although the only reports of this happening that I'm aware of are from the 1920s 

[Graham Hughes]

Have you thought of farm specials? Railways used to move entire farms (not the land obviously) but animals, machinery etc.I have read somewhere of a farm moving from Wales to Scotland, so why not the reverse?

There is an excellent British Transport film called Farmer Moving South which is in two parts on Youtube and which, although filmed in early BR days, shows what was involved. 

 

Not so relevant maybe to a mining valley in South Wales perhaps but on the general point of wagons working to "foreign" areas, I recall reading that in the days of steam trawlers the trawlers' owners would have a contract to supply coal with a particular supplier and as the fleet worked around the coast that company would dispatch wagon loads of coal as required to whatever port the trawler was going to be at next. So for example a boat from Peterhead or Fraserburgh might have a contract with a supplier in their area but as the herring season progressed and the boats followed the fish down the east coast then wagons of coal from the GNoS would turn up at Lowestoft or Great Yarmouth. 

 

For the purpose of the questioner then I think the CR, NB and GSWR could well be justified by engineering products supplied from the factories of the Scottish Central Belt. At this time the engineering industry of Scotland were supplying engineered goods all over the Empire, I am sure they would have sent plenty to the mining industry of South Wales. From the Highland and maybe GNoS would pit props have been a possibility? A lot of timber was shipped from the North of Scotland. Did it find its way to South Wales at all? Sheep are another possibility. I know lots of Welsh farmers travel to Hawes in North Yorkshire for the annual Blue Face Leicester Tup sales, for example, and the large sales of sheep at places such as Lairg and Kelso have a long tradition of supplying sheep all over the country so if you can find a bit more about where South Wales sheep farmers traditionally obtained their breeding stock that might give you some possibilities. Unspecified "imported goods" from the continent could perhaps justify wagons from the companies serving the East Coast ports. Find some old photos of goods yards and you will be surprised at just how big a selection of wagons from companies some distance away from the location can be seen. The railways were, after all, built to transport goods around the country.

 

Burgundy's point about the statistical analysis is a good one and a similar article appeared some years ago in Model Railways, but such analysis does fail to take into account specific traffic. For example if you are modeling a remote Scottish branch off the Callander and Oban then the relative proportions of the CR's wagon fleet would probably tell you that gunpowder vans would be very few and far between yet at the end of the branch at Ballachulish was a large slate quarry supplying roofing slate throughout the country so gunpowder would have been a regular traffic. 

[billbedford]

I fancy some wagons from "foreign parts" on my GWR/Rhymney joint line. I am happy to justify visitors from the LNWR, Midland, North Stafford, Cambrian and the southern and major joint companies, but I would like to be able to justify occasional visitors from further away. Any suggestions for legitimate traffic from Scotland and the north of England to a south Wales mining valley? From, for example:

Highland Railway

Caledonian Railway

GNSR

GSWR

North British Railway

North Eastern Railway

Maryport & Carlisle Railway

Furness Railway

Workington & Cleator (did they have their own wagons?)

Hull & Barnsley

LDECR

 

 

From that list only the North Eastern had enough wagons to make the chance of one turning up in a South Wales Valley with any regularity. Some of the others may have made it to Newport or Cardiff, but wether they got up the valleys would depend on the industrial activity in the area at the time. There would be a better chance if, for instance, a new pit was being sunk or there an iron works was being extended.

[Penlan]

First, many thanks Buffalo - Post #2 - For the cross reference to the RCH data I posted.

 

I'm currently reading a new book 'The Llanelly Railway & Dock Company' by Michael Denman (John Miles will know the book), and on page 48, plate 24, there's a pre-group photo of wagons on the Private Siding to Cilyrychen Lime Kilns, near Llandybie. The wagons range from single to four or five planks and are :

Port Talbot, North Staffs, Great Central, Midland, with a further 4 or 5 five wagons whose ownership cannot be identified.

 

Of course there's also Furniture Containers to be moved, Tudor Watkins and I have about 6 on our layouts,  I think we have Cambrian, LNWR, North Staffs, Great Northern and so on as the base wagons for the Containers. The Containers are all PO liveries.

 

Farm sales needed plenty of vehicles too.  

 

 

I also have a Great Eastern low wagon with a Ransomes plough on for delivery to South Wales somewhere.

 

 

[Penlan]

Don't forget too, that although local breweries provided plenty of Ale, the Midland Rly moved masses of Ale all over the country from Burton.

[Poor Old Bruce]

Don't know if it helps but I am sure there is a published photo (can't lay my hands on it at the mo) by H.C.Casserley, taken somewhere near Inverness in (IIRC) 1928ish showing all sorts of foreign wagons including an LBSCR van so at least it shows that some wagons ranged far and wide.

[jwealleans]

Didn't the Highland have a reputation for hanging on to foreign wagons as (allegedly) it saved them building more of their own?

[Poggy1165]

The excuse I use is that I like foreign wagons - end of discussion.

 

I have just been looking at a photo of a brickworks on a very obscure bit of the GCR in Wales, known as the Buckley Railway. The ultimate backwater. Prominent among a string of PO wagons are a Caley open and a GE open. Sadly the photo is not dated, but on the assumption it predates common user arrangements, I really struggle to explain what those two are doing in that location.

 

When reading an accident report on the CLC, well before the common user era, I found a SECR wagon in a Liverpool-Manchester goods train. Again, why? No idea!

 

I think all you need is a plausible full wagon load. The Scots wagons could be bringing in essential supplies of whisky for the local officers' mess. Cattle were often brought down from the north to be fattened on southern pastures - this certainly happened in the High Peak, but maybe a Welsh mining valley might be a bit of a stretch for that traffic. Castings and similar engineering goods? There were many engineering works in Scotland and the North of England. Maybe a new boiler for a colliery engine? Timber trade? Again I have just been looking at a photo of some absolutely massive tree trunks loaded on GWR bolster wagons at Bakewell (MR). I can't imagine anyone transhipping tree trunks. 

 

My rule for pre WW! is that 'native' wagons should dominate, but 'foreigners' are welcome as long as the numbers are controlled. Keep the 'natives' on the layout all the time and swap the 'foreigners' around. It adds interest.

[Penlan]

Didn't the Highland have a reputation for hanging on to foreign wagons as (allegedly) it saved them building more of their own?

Wouldn't the RCH number checkers have noted this and then the Highland been charged 'demurrage charges'.

However, tongue in cheek, if the Highland had then forwarded them on to Brigadoone ......  

[Penlan]

.

 

I think all you need is a plausible full wagon load. The Scots wagons could be bringing in essential supplies of whisky for the local officers' mess. 

OR, Scottish First Potatoes, these are normally pest free.

[neilrh]

My understanding would be that foreign wagons would carry deliveries to the area, and should be returned to owner as soon as the load was unloaded. Most would be vans or covered opens - though being in the valleys, there's likely need for wood support in the mines, maybe one of your suppliers is from up north?

[burgundy]

Using the example of Sheffield Park that is mentioned above, do you have the "back story" for the station that you are modelling? If it is sitting on top of a coal mine, presumably the coal traffic would all have been outward bound (or was there a trade in the different types of coal among different areas of the country?). As others have suggested, a mine could justify the import of engineering products from specialist suppliers in other areas and consumables such as pit props.

Slightly surprisingly, Sheffield Park shipped in several wagon loads of beer in the figures quoted above - 3 in vans from the SECR and several wagons carrying barrels from the Midland. Presumably, Welsh miners would have similar needs - unless you have already built your Temperance Hall?

As I mentioned above, Turner's timber yard added a particular traffic from Sheffield Park, so is there some appropriate local industry (other than coal) that could be used to justify some variation?

Finally, notwithstanding the fairly dull selection of vehicles that represented the norm for Sheffield Park, there must have been some moments of wild excitement when, for example, the Royal Train arrived with a distinguished visitor to the big house. International cricket matches must have generated a considerable excursion traffic. And Volunteer Field Days must have involved the movement of thousands of men, horses and equipment from all across the South of England - not forgetting an appearance by the Brighton's own armoured train.   

A little local research might produce some interesting options that could justify some variety from the endless strings of coal wagons.

Best wishes

Eric                  

[billbedford]

My understanding would be that foreign wagons would carry deliveries to the area, and should be returned to owner as soon as the load was unloaded. Most would be vans or covered opens - though being in the valleys, there's likely need for wood support in the mines, maybe one of your suppliers is from up north?

 

Baltic timber was almost always cheaper for pit props, especially as the collieries could utilise their returning empty wagons to transport them from the docks.

[buffalo]

My understanding would be that foreign wagons would carry deliveries to the area, and should be returned to owner as soon as the load was unloaded...

Yes, that was the case before WWI, companies had up to five days to return wagons, though if there was a suitable load, they might be returned loaded. However, from 1915 onwards there was a series of common user agreements that allowed wagons to be used without returning them to their home company. In 1917 all companies agreed to include all unfitted opens opens of three planks and above, and in 1919 unfitted covered vans were inluded. There's a useful summary of these agreements.here.

 

Nick