peach james Posted January 4, 2015 Share Posted January 4, 2015 (edited) CTC, the issue is one of spreading the costs out over the # of models being produced. For this project to go ahead, Rapido needs ~850 orders or so, in order to amortize the tooling and construction costs. The order is for 1000 (+/-). Kickstarter projects typically have stretch goals- not so in this case, it is basically a all or nothing at all situation. It's not like making only the power units is a viable goal, or only one of the coach types. So, it leaves the nature of the project- if someone had the 250 000 quid to put up for the order, then they could...but no ONE individual or company has stepped forward to do so. Therefore, this can be thought as being a consortium approach- if enough people are interested, then the project will go forward. If it doesn't in this form, then it looks like DJModels would be interested in the future of taking on the project. Dave has, I think, taken a very moral (& pragmatic) approach- he'll wait and see if this works before deciding if he will carry on with his own approach, which is likely to be several years down the road if it happens that way. James Edited January 4, 2015 by peach james Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Revolution Ben Posted January 4, 2015 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted January 4, 2015 Hi all, James is right. The Pendolino is a complex train that needs five different bodyshells to produce the complete 9-car train. This requires upfront investment of around £250k to design, tool up and produce. For the major manufacturers finding such cash can only be justified is sales are predicted to be at least 5-10,000 over a relatively short time - say 5 years. They have told me that sales of existing OHLE models suggest to them that the finances don't stack up. So we have gone down another road, and are looking to find the cash needed to tool and produce 1000 units upfront. And in return for pledging upfront, our backers get the model for what is effectively the trade price, saving around £60 on what the model will eventually cost if produced by Rapido at least two years later. cheers Ben A. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
acko22 Posted January 4, 2015 Share Posted January 4, 2015 Sadly from what the mainstream manufacturers say may be true for the sales of what they have offered. But if they don't offer more then people won't look at modeling that kind of scene lets face it DCC ready for the west coast all we have had is 86s, 221s, and 380s and well since the days I can remember clearly (early 90s) they are not the only things to have passed through Crewe etc. Should this all come off then not only will it get another model onto the market it will make the mainstream companies look at it and think one simple thing "People REALLY want this", which I know personally I want to see. It just brings a new fresh approach to the whole thing even if mainstream makes used this kind of kickstart system to get models to market I know if they did and I wanted what they were offering I would put my money in, end of the day ever so often it take a "revolution" if you like to freshen things up and the only people who can do that is us the people that buy the models by taking action of some sort. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Revolution Ben Posted January 4, 2015 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted January 4, 2015 Hello all, I am not sure if it's the CJM effect or the traditional surge that was anticipated, but pledges have suddenly started picking up in earnest. We are now at £110K pledged, so just a cool 100K to manage in the next fortnight. Let's hope we can do it. Thanks to all those who've let me know where they are going to be with flyers - we're covered at St Albans, Calne, Canterbury and Guildford now, but would be good to know if any N Gauge layouts or stands that would be happy to distributed our flyers will be at any of the other shows.... cheers Ben A. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Padishar Creel Posted January 4, 2015 Share Posted January 4, 2015 Hallo Ben, Not only the CJM affect but also the fact that an existing model from Rapido was tested and from the models used to test in comparison it was only Kato which surpassed it. The proof of the pudding effect.... es grüßt pc 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tricky-CRS Posted January 4, 2015 Share Posted January 4, 2015 (edited) If it is not your era or location or timing is wrong could I suggest that you at least give something. Money, era and location are all wrong for me so I have backed it at the base level and uptted my pledge to £10, depending on cash near the end I may try to give more if it helps. If everyone on here gave a tenner it would certainly help the overall cause.So please everyone not directly interested give £10 it will help the hobby, who knows what will be next!! Edited January 4, 2015 by Tricky-CRS 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium njee20 Posted January 4, 2015 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 4, 2015 Newsletter effect I'm sure too, but yes, big surge today! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
reevesthecat Posted January 4, 2015 Share Posted January 4, 2015 Slightly amused that it has been suggested to buy one then ebay it as this usually provokes howls of derision on thIs very forum for such behaviour. I would like to add however I have pledged to buy one to do this very thing in a year or so. If I get slated in a year or so for this I will direct people to this very thread! Mark 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnshutts Posted January 4, 2015 Share Posted January 4, 2015 Hi All, Ben mentioned earlier about the possibility of investing in a set which could then sell on. If you want to support this project then do think seriously about buying to sell. I suspect others may decide they want one after the Kickstarter has ended so you're likely to at least get your money back if not more - particularly if the set you buy isn't produced again (another good reason to produce a small number in a unique livery if possible). There is evidence to support this with limited runs like the Dapol 67s (Royal, W&S, etc) and, dare I say it the ATM WIA Arbel sets, now selling on eBay for much inflated prices - appreciating of course that we're talking a higher initial cost here. The connection to OHLE has to be considered, but if you've seen the excellent new Farish DRS 57/3 then a drag certainly opens the door to other modern image layouts. Plus it'll be a must for anyone who decides to model WCML after the event... I've pledged for a couple of sets already and don't need a third, but I'd push the boat out if it means helping the project get over the line. I'd urge everyone to do so if it's within their means if and when the time comes. John Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Revolution Ben Posted January 4, 2015 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted January 4, 2015 Hi Reeves, I see nothing wrong in a speculative pledge. After all, every pledge counts to get us over the line. So any individual's motive is irrelevant as they are doing a service to N Gauge as a whole. The way I see it, if the project succeeds then it is likely to create a lot of interest in the modelling press, on the web and at exhibitions (I am sure Rapido will have a strong presence at Warley next year) and I suspect that there will be a significant number of people regretting that they missed out before the models even arrive! And the speculative pledgers will be no less a part of our community than anyone else - receiving updates, choosing identities, enjoying that feeling of anticipation - so even if you sell the model on as soon as you get it at cost you'll have had a year of pleasant enjoyment for free! Actually, I'd like to think that quite a few "speculative pledgers" might even decide to keep their models when they receive them because they are so nice... perhaps speculators should pledge for two, just to be on the safe side....??? ;-) cheers Ben A. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
m0rris Posted January 4, 2015 Share Posted January 4, 2015 I've pledged for two and will pledge for a third if that is what it requires to get this project going, this is a really big moment for us N gaugers and if we can pull it off it will be to the benefit of not just our scale but our hobby as a whole. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
m0rris Posted January 4, 2015 Share Posted January 4, 2015 I forgot to mention that I'm not going to Kilmarnock but I know someone who might be, I'll see whether I can get hold of him and he is willing to help out. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danfilm007 Posted January 4, 2015 Share Posted January 4, 2015 There we go, finally bit the bullet and pledged £30. Couldn't fit (or afford!) a 5 or 9 car Pendi, so decided to go for the 2 coaches. Could be fun as a short train anyway! 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Claude_Dreyfus Posted January 4, 2015 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 4, 2015 Slightly amused that it has been suggested to buy one then ebay it as this usually provokes howls of derision on thIs very forum for such behaviour. I would like to add however I have pledged to buy one to do this very thing in a year or so. If I get slated in a year or so for this I will direct people to this very thread! Mark I think the derision is aimed at those who hoover up special editions in bulk, selling the item out and thereby depriving others of the opportunity to purchase one at the retail price, then list them on Ebay for a vastly inflated price. In this case nobody misses out, a couple of speculative orders could mean that the project succeeds and everyone who pledged gets one. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Revolution Ben Posted January 5, 2015 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted January 5, 2015 Agreed - and expressed more neatly than I managed! I think the motive of any backers is somewhat irrelevant: if they can help us get over the line and in turn help those who really want a Pendo where is the harm in helping themselves into the bargain? It's a win-win-win! As we are now solidly into the last 13 days of the campaign - with a surge in pledges recently taking us to £115K but still well short - my emphasis is purely on ensuring that everyone who might want one of these models knows about this opportunity. This gives us all the best chance of obtaining a model at the discounted Kickstarter rates. While Mike and I will not rest until 2200 on January 18th, if you wish to help us here are some suggestions, some of which will take barely 20 seconds to do and could make a big difference! * Can you convince one other person to pledge? If every backer did this we would be fine! * Is there anyone you know who is a collector or model train enthusiast? If so just mention the project - and the deadline - to them! * Please follow us on Twitter (@baby_pendo) and "Like" Baby Pendo and Rapido on Facebook - this means word will spread organically through social media and far more people will in turn see that the project exists. * Does your local retailer know about the project? Just ask them - it may be they haven't seen my emails and would be interested in pledging. cheers Ben A. 3 - Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike W Posted January 5, 2015 Share Posted January 5, 2015 Rightio, I've just pledged for a £30 2 car add on as well. As I've said before, I've no interest in running a layout with a Pendolino on, but as a committed N gauger I think this is a fantastic opportunity to drive the gauge forward. Pledging for the 2 car add on set is a great way, in my opinion, of having the excitement of the production process by pledging for some stock and also showing a reasonable amount of support for the project. If I can sell it late on in 2016 for a profit, then so be it, if I decide to at the time. Really hope this gets over the line! I reckon Rapido would make the development & production phase a lot of fun for everyone. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Steve Purves Posted January 5, 2015 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 5, 2015 Is anybody else out there in the same boat as me, Wanting to pledge, Wanting a Pendo but simply not being able to commit to that amount of money at this time? I would happily pledge normally but have a deadline for my layouts first show looming so any spare capital has been sucked up with that! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
acko22 Posted January 5, 2015 Share Posted January 5, 2015 (edited) Steve, I think there will be plenty of people in your situation, that's were people pledging for ones to sell on ebay helps! While it may cost say someone like yourself more, as long as it is reasonable then I don't feel there is any harm in making a few quid out of it in the end it could very well be those that want to sell them on Ebay that get things over the line, then it gives the likes of people in your situation a second chance to get one. The only issues I have with it personally are well one of familiar issues with ebay people taking the proverbial P*ss with the amount they are asking, and secondly if people are selling the poppy edition for a profit well are they going to donate a small amount of the profit to the RBL. I know the second one can not be controlled and is all down to a persons personal preference I just think from a personal stance it would be the right thing to do! Edited January 5, 2015 by acko22 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium njee20 Posted January 5, 2015 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 5, 2015 (edited) It's all just supply and demand really though isn't it? If someone sells an item on eBay for a price that "takes the piss" then it's because someone's prepared to pay it, and clearly didn't deem it to be extortion, even if you do. If they keep listing it at a stupid price and not selling then it's a valid point. Edited January 5, 2015 by njee20 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
acko22 Posted January 5, 2015 Share Posted January 5, 2015 Totally agree Njee, if someone is prepared to buy it at a stupid price then more fool them! People who are in the situation Steve is in can look at it and make an informed choice as most of the pledges have come from people on the forums so well all know the cost of the sets and can make a fair and informed choice instead of the Ebay lottery and avoiding the p*ss takers! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Revolution Ben Posted January 5, 2015 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted January 5, 2015 (edited) Hi Steve, I remember you suggesing earlier in the thread that we delay the deadline to after Xmas, which we thought was a good idea and did. But if now is impossible too, when would be a good time? We've tried to give as much notice as feasible - on this forum it's been under discussion since September, so arguably up to 4 months to save up - and we've kept the price at what we consider to be a very fair level. If you want to be part of the project what about pledging for just 2 or 4 intermediate coaches now at the reduced price, then pick up a 5-car unit later at the inevitably higher ebay or trader prices? At least you'd save some money...? In terms of sales later on, Rapido have said their RRP (for basic 9-car DC option) would be not less than £320, so that seems a fair price "benchmark" to me. Cheers Ben A. Edited January 5, 2015 by Ben A Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Steve Purves Posted January 5, 2015 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 5, 2015 Its not wanting to delay or even saying its a bad time. Just for me, personally, I have not been able to save up, nor am I in a position to just buy outright. The layout has taken priority. I have had to sell stock collected for future projects just to finance Christmas and the current build and still ended up in the clutches of payday loans! I pledged for 9 car set early on but unfortunately had to cut this down to a token donation as the stark realisation of mid January gloom sets in. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fenway Park Posted January 5, 2015 Share Posted January 5, 2015 Hi Ben I model Japanese N gauge but am pleased to pledge for a Pendolino or two. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnshutts Posted January 5, 2015 Share Posted January 5, 2015 Hi, I genuinely agree with those aggrieved at being asked to pay high prices through eBay - it's very annoying and having missed out on the motorised Dapol Royal 67 I have first hand experience of it. However, I do have to point out as others have within this thread that unless we get the project across the line by the end of the Kickstarter period then nobody will be buying or selling one at any price and that'd be a real real shame. John Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Revolution Ben Posted January 5, 2015 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted January 5, 2015 Hi John, No one on this forum has to pay inflated prices through eBay - everyone here knows about the project, knows the deadline and knows that the pledge price is especially generous to encourage people to pledge. I think those who are pledging speculatively - and thanks to them for doing so, to help us across the line - will be selling their to those modellers who, for whatever reason, were not aware of the project in time. And there will be plenty of them; it's tempting to think that if we are chatting about something on here then the whole model railway world knows about it, but from my own experience I know that's not the case. Even in my own NGS area group the majority last time we met (at least 6) had not heard of the scheme until I actually told them! Steve - I am sorry your personal circumstances don't allow you to pledge at this time; thanks for all your support nonetheless. cheers Ben A. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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