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GWR Mixed Goods Yard Period 1927-33 7x 2 ft "OO"


Keegs

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Hi all, I am new to this forum and seeking to make this model as realistic as possible  so I would appreciate any pointers on the layout of it and where certain points would be and which of the two main lines would be "up" and "down"

 

The water continues up and under the two main lines on the left and there will be a small bridge across it, there will be a road to allow lorries to visit the goods yard, dock and creamery at the front-right of the layout.

 

Thanks!

post-24608-0-03871900-1416083552_thumb.jpg

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All British main line railways "Drove on the left" in the grouping era of 1923 - 1948 so the top track will be left to right and the next one down right to left,  Up is towards London.

 

As regards the plan there is far too much track and shunting would  be almost impossible.

 

The yard entry is a "Facing" crossover, this would allow a very short train to enter the sidings forwards, in reality this would be a trailing crossover.  Usually the GWR had a "Fan" of sidings leading from a trailing connection so the train had to back in, head shunts were rare and the main running line was usually used as a shunting neck,  "Kick back sidings were also somewhat rare though almost every model has them.,

 

Goods sheds need plenty of room for lorries on the side away from the away from.

 

There are several good books of GWR track plan if you are interested in making it prototypical

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To clarify the use of the word "drove" - Think of it as being in a car and you are on the left and the opposing traffic is on the right.... Does that make sense?

 

London is always in the Up direction.

 

Good luck with the project.

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In terms of track work the biggest practical problem is getting out of the run round loop and into the main goods yard.

 

post-4404-0-25572400-1416149252.jpg

 

The areas marked by the red circle shows that the most you can shunt into the goods shed is a small 0-4-0 loco and one short wagon. The area of the blue circle would just hold a loco.

 

While as previously mentioned if the road vehicle access to the goods shed is in the area of the green circle then this blocks all of the siding during lorry loading/unloading.

 

Rather than go straight into an AnyRail plan it may be worth spending a bit of time with pencil and paper sketching out some more plans. It's also an idea to consider diagonal track plans (as they can squeeze a bit more space in) rather than straight horizontal lines. Even better - line up some model locos and wagons on a table top and measure out the length needed. This can be a good guide to use on AnyRail in planning siding and headshunt lengths.

 

I hope this helps...

 

Eric

 

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To clarify on GWR locos the driver sat or stood on the right side of the cab,  while the trains used the left hand tracks  on double track sections   The reason for this is lost in the mists of time, but the advantage of the driver beig in the right is that most firemen were right handed and found it more convenient to stand on the left of the firebox door and if the driver was on the right he kept out of their way, probably more of a problem with narrow 19th century loco cabs than the final 9ft wide cabs of the GWRs last designs the Counties and 94XX.

 

 

The GWR also enjoyed wide track spacing on many main lines which were originally 7ft gauge which allowed signals to be paced between double tracks and so were more convenient for right hand drive locos,

 

London was always "Up" on the GWR, there were exceptions on absorbed lines as towards Derby  was "Up" on the MSWJR as it was heavily influenced by the Midland railway from which most of its through traffic came and the Midland regarded Derby as the centre of the universe,  I think the VoR had "Up" uphill towards Devils Bridge!

 

Obviously down trains went up Dainton incline and Wellington Bank, and Hatton Incline while up trains went down Dainton etc and the up main from Swindon to Paddington was downhill, as was every other major main line terminus approach, but why London was up I have no Idea.

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First of all, thank you guys for all the help!

I've read all your comments, done some more research and given my plan a makeover.

Is this any better?

Still unsure which should be "Up" or "Down"?

 

I've been given permission my the other half to extend the layout to 7ft 8in, which allows for more space at eh ends!

 

 

post-24608-0-02494500-1416298688_thumb.jpg

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There is a reason railways are long and thin.  You can't access any of the sidings except one or two wagons at a time.  This is not how the real thing works (or was worked).  You need a fan of sidings coming from the main access point off the main line.  You can have a headshunt or trap point in there as well and even a kick back siding if you really want it but you need the ability to get a long length of wagons pushed back into a siding directly from the main line.  

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I keep looking at this and trying to work out exactly what it is you're after in your model - and it still remains unclear to me.

 

You do at least now have a trailing connection to get into the yard which is as it should be - and it doesn't matter whether it is off the Up line or the Down Line - it is a trailing connection and can therefore be shunted by a passing train.

 

But then I get lost as there are crossovers leading in all directions with space to stand or shunt hardy any wagons between them and virtually nowhere to load/unload goods traffic.  I can see how you could shunt the quayside line and keep a supply of wagons  going for it - albeit with a very short headshunt but many of the other buildings are puzzling.  I can see the possibility of a small 'local' engine shed for the yard but that is about it I'm afraid.

 

It would help if you could more clearly spell out both what you think you would be doing movements wise and how you intend to do it on this track layout - then I think you will appreciate the need to think carefully about that before doing the track plan

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You might find some inspiration in Nottingham Goods built by Dave Barrett for the Scalefour Society 1883 Challenge.  This had to occupy an area less than 18.83 square feet, so is probably a bit larger than your space, and although it is operable, it was largely intended as a diorama to display the wagon fleet, and relies more on hidden sidings than being served from a working main line.  It would need some simplification to meet your operating and dimensional requirements, but may help to show what could or couldn't be achieved.

 

As for your concerns about Up and Down, there is no need to worry.  The nomenclature is really only a means to identify running tracks or directions in a particular locale, and had no operational significance.  Although generally Up was towards  London, that wouldn't apply in Scotland or perhaps the Welsh Valleys, and cross country lines, such as the Lancashire and Yorkshire no doubt had their own ideas.  The naming could change suddenly for various reasons.  For example, the same running line through one of the Exeter stations would carry Up Great Western trains and Down South Western trains because of the way these lines entered the city.  Another occasion was at Battersea Park station in London.  Whilst both London Bridge and Victoria stations were considered as Up destinations, the South London line ran between the two, and because London Bridge was the older station, it took precedence.  So a SL train would leave London Bridge as a Down train, but, on arrival at Battersea would have to take the Up Local line to finish its journey to Victoria.  Similar scenarios would be found throughout the UK, and don't even try to apply a rule to the Circle line!

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Keegs,

Just a thought - why not have a look at some historic real railways in the area you're planning to model?

Try this Google search "old great western railway goods yard layouts"

And scan through the images.

 

By the way my favourite is Barnstaple Junction which I tried to model in EM gauge before job changes and house moves killed the project. http://locodriver.co.uk/Railway_Encyclopedia/Part202/Part244/Part01/MAP07.jpg

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I really don't know what to do now, thinking of abandoning the project, I just wanted to have some fun shunting some wagons around and try to keep it at least a bit accurate to how a real railway works, you guys have all got me confused, so now I don't know where to go with this layout. I wanted to do a whole lot of shunting puzzles, with some interesting rolling stock.

 

I've read a fair amount into the area I'm modelling: a portion of Brenton docks mixed with the Express Dairies Creamery in Acton. Fictional town

 

Spent 3 hours trying to improve the plan and then I get someone telling me it's now all wrong,I'm just starting out, though it'd be fun to model an area around Brenton/Acton.

Thinking of giving up and spending the money on something else.

 

I don't even know what all this railway jargon means "Headshunt" Or "Trap Point".

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There is a big difference between a time saver shunting puzzle and a real goods yard.  The time saver puzzle which your plan is presumably inspired by (if not google it to see more) is intentionally awkward to shunt - otherwise it would less of a puzzle.  This however doesn't make it very realistic - the real railway didn't build things purposely awkward.

 

The simplest shunting puzzle that is also prototypical is the inglenook.  This is just three sidings and a headshunt.  All a headshunt is is a length of track connected to the sidings that allow wagons to be drawn out of and back into the sidings.

 

The real railway also had to protect the passengers.  One way it did this was to prevent run away wagons from entering onto the lines that carried passengers (called the running lines).  It did this by placing points to trap run away wagons and divert them either off the track entirely or into a siding/headshunt.

 

So a simple goods yard with shunting in your space could look like this:

post-16793-0-04841000-1416389409_thumb.jpg

 

As a first build this would give you more than enough to go at and would still allow shunting and scenery with your dock. You could add kick back sidings (that is ones that face opposite to the access from the main line) and a run around loop (to allow a loco to move from one end of a wagon to the other) thus:

post-16793-0-56715800-1416390158_thumb.jpg

 

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I really don't know what to do now, thinking of abandoning the project, I just wanted to have some fun shunting some wagons around and try to keep it at least a bit accurate to how a real railway works, you guys have all got me confused, so now I don't know where to go with this layout. I wanted to do a whole lot of shunting puzzles, with some interesting rolling stock.

 

I've read a fair amount into the area I'm modelling: a portion of Brenton docks mixed with the Express Dairies Creamery in Acton. Fictional town

 

Spent 3 hours trying to improve the plan and then I get someone telling me it's now all wrong,I'm just starting out, though it'd be fun to model an area around Brenton/Acton.

Thinking of giving up and spending the money on something else.

 

I don't even know what all this railway jargon means "Headshunt" Or "Trap Point".

 

people are only trying to provide advice based on what they assume you are after. If you say you want a GWR Mixed Goods yard, then people will think you want to base it on something that actually exists. If you want a shunting puzzle then just go for it and don't worry about what may have happened in reality.

 

the only thing you need to worry about is whether the project is achievable and whether it will be fun to use when it's finished.

 

have a look at these links for some inspiration:

 

http://www.freetrackplans.com/Layout-Plans.php

 

http://www.carendt.com/micro-layout-design-gallery/

 

the first link contains lots of ideas for layouts, many of which are not what might have existed in real life, but model railways don't have to be about total realism. if you want fun, then choose fun!

 

the second link is for layouts much smaller than yours, but you can simply choose one of the plans and extend all the sidings, or scale everything up, or whatever you want. but have a look at how the plans might work, how you might actually shunt things around. look at the section marked 'Tymesavers'.

 

remember, there is only one 'rule' in this hobby: Rule 1, which states that you can do whatever you want with your own layout.

 

I think the main point is that a layout has to actually function, and the plans you have drawn above may not work as you might have liked, which is what people have been saying. However, don't worry about all the jargon and being realistic. have a look at the links above and get an idea of what might work. the good news is that your layout can be much simpler, take much less time and money to build, and be more fun to operate.

 

don't give up!

 

google 'shunting puzzles' for more ideas if you're stuck.

 

:)

 

edit: nice explanation from jon_1066 above.

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First of all, thank you guys for all the help!

I've read all your comments, done some more research and given my plan a makeover.

Is this any better?

Still unsure which should be "Up" or "Down"?

 

I've been given permission my the other half to extend the layout to 7ft 8in, which allows for more space at eh ends!

 

 

As regards to "Up" and "Down" the answer is either line can be up or down. "Up" usually went up to London (but not always) so the up line can run from East South North or west, or any other point. So on your plan either line could be "up" depending on which side of the layout London lies. If we look at a GWR map London lies on the right, If we view your layout on the same plane then quite likely London would lie to the right of your layout and you could happily say that the top line is the up line, since trains on that line would travel from left to right. Whereas trains on the lower main line would be travelling from right to left.

 

In other words you can decide which line is the "up" and which is the "down" depending on where London is in relation to the layout.

 

 

Eric

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I really don't know what to do now, thinking of abandoning the project, I just wanted to have some fun shunting some wagons around and try to keep it at least a bit accurate to how a real railway works, you guys have all got me confused, so now I don't know where to go with this layout. I wanted to do a whole lot of shunting puzzles, with some interesting rolling stock.

 

I've read a fair amount into the area I'm modelling: a portion of Brenton docks mixed with the Express Dairies Creamery in Acton. Fictional town

 

Spent 3 hours trying to improve the plan and then I get someone telling me it's now all wrong,I'm just starting out, though it'd be fun to model an area around Brenton/Acton.

Thinking of giving up and spending the money on something else.

 

I don't even know what all this railway jargon means "Headshunt" Or "Trap Point".

 

 

I liked what 

maunsel 

did and actually highlighted the parts that are making the problem!!

 

 

 

Nil Desperandum! 

 

 

It takes a brave and wise person to expose their ideas to others. This equally applies to sharing projected layout plans here. So firstly - Bravo!

 

So lets look at your plan and run through it step by step.

 

post-4404-0-65320600-1416392073.jpg

 

1. Consider where Stuff Comes From. - As you say you are limited to under 8 feet you have no space for trains to arrive from or depart into, such as a fiddleyard. This means the longest train that you can run into the goods yards is determined by the length of track highligthed by the orange oval.

 

It also means that the top main line (our up line?) is unused and remains a scenic accessory. As is the lower main line (our down line?) to the right of the turnout entering the yard.

 

Many modellers get around this conundrum by running to and from a fiddle yard.

 

2. Consider where stuff Goes to and What it does There. -  Goods yards only existed because the railway companies had to bear the inconvenience of having to load and unload their customers' goods. So each siding or building would serve its own purpose. For example the creamery sidings at Acton. Once in the siding stuff had to be gotten into and gotten out of the wagons. This meant more space for carts and lorries. The sidings in the area of the red circle can be used to store wagons, but not to unload or to load them.

 

In terms of playing with toy trains operating a realistic model railway part of the design of a goods yard is thinking about what goes where, in the most convenient manner, and with the least fuss. One siding may be boring to operate by itself, but if you divided up that siding by having two or three separate destinations on it, it soon becomes a shunting challenge - fun or otherwise!

 

So more sidings do not always mean better.

 

3. Considering How to Get Stuff To and From. - Jon_1066's plans show what yards can look like. The headshunt is just the length of track at the end of a loop that allows you to shunt a train without having to go back onto the mainline. Trap points stop wagons rolling off onto the main line by derailing them before they get that far. Most modellers gently and quietly ignore this subject, but if you want an extra botheration factor then Peco supply some ready made. 

 

If we look at the yellow circle the various run round loops will dictate the longest train that the yard can handle. So the track lengths in the yellow and orange ovals need to be roughly the same.

 

Once you've got your train into these loops the length of train that you can shunt into or out of the various sidings is restricted by the track length in the blue oval.

 

Assuming your plan is 2" per square then this gives a train length of approx 14" in order to stay clear of the points. My personal rule of thumb is to allow 6 inches for a loco (mine are all short ones) and 3 1/2 inches for a 10 ft wheelbase wagon over couplings. So 14 inches gives a train length of a loco and two wagons.

 

This is where getting out some rolling stock and measuring them on a table top first really helps! 

 

4. Simplicity is Key. - It's very tempting to think that the more track you have the better (please don't ask me how I found out) but often a simpler plan is more enjoyable to play with  operate properly.

 

5. Research is Useful. - Google image search is your friend. So type in terms like "goods yards" and then study the images. Second hand railway books are also useful, as are new ones, as are visits to model railway shows. You'll soon get an idea of what you like and "must have" as opposed to the bits that leave you cold.

 

Personally I always had a soft spot for Acton. I'm not sure about Brenton, did you mean Brentford possibly? If so the following link may prove useful as it includes a map of the goods yards there:-

 

http://www.gwr.org.uk/nobrentford.html

 

6. Always remember that advice is worth only as much as you pay for it - including mine - and that experience is only ever gained about 30 seconds after you actually need it!

 

Now - time to get back to the planning!

 

Good luck & don't give up!

 

Eric

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Don't be discouraged by the tone of the early responses - most people on here try to be helpful most of the time, but their comments don't always come out looking quite that way ....... and one or two have completely forgotten how little they knew when they started!

 

Also, if you ask the question, say, "Is it a or b?", you are likely to get replies ranging from c to z!

 

Hopefully you will find this morning's replies more encouraging and helpful.

 

My own two penn'orth on your design as a shunting puzzle is that with all those short sidings so close together, uncoupling is going to be tricky.  Automatic uncoupling is a world of pain which causes as much debate on here as almost anything, and the "hand of god" will have to be more delicate than mine to reach in and uncouple manually.  If you are thinking of the standard (Hornby/Bachmann) tension lock couplings, the uncoupling ramps effectively shorten your sidings by a couple of inches - you can leave the uncoupled wagon partially over the ramp, but need to be able to push it clear of the ramp (i.e. further towards the buffers) before the couplings will engage to let you pull it out again.  Guess how I know? 

 

Best of luck!!

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In an earlier post I mentioned the main lines and their non use. I also previously mentioned trying to get away from straight horizontal lines.

 

The following plan is very loosely based on Brentford, but also combines a creamery. The squares are 6", it uses AnyRail and Peco Code75 Streamline OO track. The idea of the plan is to show:-

  1. How to hide an open main line with scenic blocks - marked by the letters C so producing two hidden fiddle yards where you can dispatch trains to and from. 
  2. Using more diagonal and angled track so provide some smooth curves and escape the horizontal.
  3. Destinations for freight:- creamery loading/unloading dock, coal drop for the creamery, transhipment shed to transfer from train to narrowboats and barges, warehouse with multiple loading/unloading points, and open sidings for general goods and loading/unloading to lorries.
  4. Somewhere for the brakevans - B
  5. Somewhere to park the yard shunting loco - A

 

post-4404-0-03042800-1416402614_thumb.jpg

 

The orange line is a wall or fence in case you wondered!

 

Please treat this as a very rough sketch - not all dimensions have been fine tuned! And of course it can easily be improved upon. Indeed you are most welcome to make use of it if you want - PM me if you want the anyrail file.

 

In effect the uppermost main line remains for appearance sakes only, but the ends of the main lines now disappear from view through the view blocks provided by the low relief warehouse and the low relief creamery. An embankment at the rear topped with some Edwardian terraced housing would add to the illusion.

 

In terms of goods destinations this layout can offer goods trains of approx 2 feet in length ie approx 5 wagons & short loco. 6 wagons could probably be arranged with some fiddling with the design.

 

Capacity - 

  1. The creamery loading dock could accommodate a rake of 4 or 5 short milk tankers (or 3 six wheelers) and a couple of vent vans for the finished products. Plus 3 coal wagons.
  2. The Goods warehouse offers approx 6 loading spaces.
  3. Another 2 in the transhipment shed.
  4. With space for loading/unloading about 9 or 10 wagons in the front sidings.

 

All in all about 27 or so "spots" to get wagons to and from. Which is a little less than the 30 or so "spots" in your revised plan.

 

In other words rather than look at then number of sidings, think more about their uses and how they can be divided up.

 

Hopefully these ideas can rekindle your enthusiasm and may help towards a layout that's fun to build and operate.

 

 

Regards

 

Eric

 

 

edited to switch A to B and B to A.....

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That's a cracker!  But I think I would try to make it possible to run a 2-car DMU from one fiddle yard to the other - maybe by singling the main line?  That way you could also get a pickup goods which has run right to left back to the right-hand fiddle yard for its next trip without running "wrong line". 

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That's a cracker!  But I think I would try to make it possible to run a 2-car DMU from one fiddle yard to the other - maybe by singling the main line?  That way you could also get a pickup goods which has run right to left back to the right-hand fiddle yard for its next trip without running "wrong line". 

 

 

Thanks!

 

And I agree about the DMU etc.

 

As I mentioned it was only really a rough sketch to show a couple of useful techniques, and I daren't look at it too often as I keep seeing little improvements all over.........

 

I did actually start with a single main line, but then put the other one back in......... :dontknow:  

 

I'm still not sure if A is B, or B is A though..... :scratchhead:  

 

 

Eric

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In an earlier post I mentioned the main lines and their non use. I also previously mentioned trying to get away from straight horizontal lines.

 

The following plan is very loosely based on Brentford, but also combines a creamery. The squares are 6", it uses AnyRail and Peco Code75 Streamline OO track. The idea of the plan is to show:-

  1. How to hide an open main line with scenic blocks - marked by the letters C so producing two hidden fiddle yards where you can dispatch trains to and from. 
  2. Using more diagonal and angled track so provide some smooth curves and escape the horizontal.
  3. Destinations for freight:- creamery loading/unloading dock, coal drop for the creamery, transhipment shed to transfer from train to narrowboats and barges, warehouse with multiple loading/unloading points, and open sidings for general goods and loading/unloading to lorries.
  4. Somewhere for the brakevans - B
  5. Somewhere to park the yard shunting loco - A

 

attachicon.gifBrenton Grand Union.jpg

 

The orange line is a wall or fence in case you wondered!

 

Please treat this as a very rough sketch - not all dimensions have been fine tuned! And of course it can easily be improved upon. Indeed you are most welcome to make use of it if you want - PM me if you want the anyrail file.

 

In effect the uppermost main line remains for appearance sakes only, but the ends of the main lines now disappear from view through the view blocks provided by the low relief warehouse and the low relief creamery. An embankment at the rear topped with some Edwardian terraced housing would add to the illusion.

 

In terms of goods destinations this layout can offer goods trains of approx 2 feet in length ie approx 5 wagons & short loco. 6 wagons could probably be arranged with some fiddling with the design.

 

Capacity - 

  1. The creamery loading dock could accommodate a rake of 4 or 5 short milk tankers (or 3 six wheelers) and a couple of vent vans for the finished products. Plus 3 coal wagons.
  2. The Goods warehouse offers approx 6 loading spaces.
  3. Another 2 in the transhipment shed.
  4. With space for loading/unloading about 9 or 10 wagons in the front sidings.

 

All in all about 27 or so "spots" to get wagons to and from. Which is a little less than the 30 or so "spots" in your revised plan.

 

In other words rather than look at then number of sidings, think more about their uses and how they can be divided up.

 

Hopefully these ideas can rekindle your enthusiasm and may help towards a layout that's fun to build and operate.

 

 

Regards

 

Eric

 

 

edited to switch A to B and B to A.....

This is simply amazing and has certainly given me a big push towards the final track plan, Thanks so much!! I have a 2x2ft space for a Fiddle yard on the RH side and I was thinking Cassettes for the LH side (Main lines only on LH side)

 

Just, wow. =D

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Although I am a big fan of AnyRail nothing quite beats sitting down with paper and pencil and doodling a design. After all we generally draw with a flowing design.

 

The difficulty with AnyRail and any other computer design program is getting stuff to flow. It's too easy to start by pinning a horizontal turnout to the plan and then getting stuck with breaking out of the straight line!

 

Always bear in mind that every design can be improved upon, but usually the improvement comes from taking something away rather than adding it!

 

With your extra cassettes and fiddle yard space their is plenty of scope for longer trains, and for running a main line shuttle service. 

 

Thanks also to everyone for all the likes etc - I think we all sometimes just have to get back to having fun with our designs........

 

Good luck!

 

Eric

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  • 11 months later...
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You are a star!!

 

I have been looking for a plan to work in my 9*7 shed and like Keegs did all the obvious things and ended up in a bad place - if you look at my post started yesterday (Google images etc) you will see the back ground and lots of help already received.

 

BUT what I was really looking for was a yard linked to a canal, as that is my summer pastime and lifelong interest, why didn't I think of Brentford!

 

I have 2 LMS locos but other than that no real commitment to the midland's so I will now look more closely

 

I can also utilize the space away from my main modelling area, as mention in my thread, to provide a fiddle yard  facilities and the all imoportant to me loop.

 

Could you PLEASE find the time to comment on using your plan with 2 main fiddle loops in my space and any tweaks?

 

Does anyone know how I can link these 2 threads so they now stay together?

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  • 6 months later...

post-24608-0-79219800-1465256042_thumb.pngpost-24608-0-76111600-1465256069_thumb.pngUnfortunately I ran out of funds and thus did not get very far (bought some points and 1 wagon!)

 

I am still looking to build it though in the coming months, albeit in a different form.

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