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Hornby's Warley Announcements.


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Having seen the long list of Hornby items deferred into 2015 (four or five pages of them), is there any truth in the rumour that the 2015 Hornby catalogue will just be a sticker to put on the front of the 2014 edition?

 

John

 

Yes and I also heard that the catalogue publication will be delayed and pushed back till 2016, plus only 50 copies will be printed and they are all going to model shops in Exeter !!!

 

John the Con.

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Strong hints that Hornby maybe announcing a Q6 next month made in the DJM Q6 thread by Dave Jones

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/88268-oo-gauge-raven-q6-0-8-0-steam-locomotive/?p=1678191

Neil

Personally, I think that's unlikely—or it would have been shown at Warley along with the other duplicates. More likely that NONE of the additional models to be announced on December 17th is a duplicate at all.

 

For what it's worth, I was told by a local retailer about two years ago that Bachmann were interested in the Q6...

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Right, its time to bring some entirely unscientific analysis to this thread. I have conducted an indepth examination of Hornby's announcements for 2014 and 2013 (unfortunately the 2012 thread on rmweb only has links to the Hornby website which of course don't work now).

 

2013 saw four steam locos announced, one emu and the sentinel. The mark 1 coaches and 3 wagons.

 

2014 saw five steam locos, another emu, the mark 2 coaches, more mark 1s and one wagon.

 

2015, so far two steam locos (king and radial), class 71, two wagons and lms suburbans.

 

So perhaps we can expect two or three steam locos, another non steam loco, probably not another range of coaches (though I live in constant hope of some GWR suburban stock) but perhaps another mark 1 (?) and possibly another wagon - possibly not

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On the basis of the LMS suburbans, LMS push-pull BS and Johnson 1P 0-4-4t.

 

On the basis of the Gresley suburbans, probably not (nice though a LNER G5, or N7, or F-whatever would be; Bachmann has more options to haul LMS push-pull stock).

 

So, goodness knows. :) Variant Sentinel perhaps.

 

Johnson 1P! Yes please! :locomotive:  Plus more Sentinels version of the Sentinel will be grand too!  :sungum:  Do have a soft spot for Sentinels...

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 I'd guess at a couple, maybe three steam locos to come. Had a GWR and SR loco announced, could it be a spread around the country, so one each for LMS and LNER to follow? Possibly a BR period loco as the third?

 

Could this also be mostly the year of the small / tank loco (the Radial is small and a tank loco) so that we might see a Tilbury tank or 0-4-4T for the LMS, a J50  or N7 for the LNER? Outsider shot: having reworked their 9F into the Crosti variant, what about the late LMS/early BR Caprotti gear black 5 variant?

 (though I live in constant hope of some GWR suburban stock)

Hornby have followed a progression in coach introductions which I think went much as follows:

Pullmans,

Gresley gangwayed

Stanier gangwayed

Maunsell gangwayed

Hawksworth gangwayed

6 wheel Pullmans

Gresley and Thompson non-gangwayed

Maunsell pull-push

Stanier non-gangwayed

 

Now what might they follow that with? For all we often criticise Hornby, I suggest this is evidence for thought out systematic range development, implemented in their catalogue over the past decade; and taken overall these have been well received models.

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The majority of  large prairies used the standard number 2 boiler.

 

There was a batch known as the 3150 that carried the larger no 4 (as the mogul) 3150-3190 In addition 3173, 3156, 3181, 3155 and 3179 were rebuilt with 5' 3" wheels and renumbered into a new 31xx class becoming 3100-3104. More were to follow but by 1939 there were other priorities. The original 31xx series had been renumbered 51xx with some new builds to fill in gaps -(told you it was complex)

 

In addition some no 2 boilered 51xx were then rebuilt into 81xx series with smaller 5' 6" wheels. 5100, 5123, 5118, 5145, 5124, 5126, 5120, 5116, 5133, 5115 becoming 8100-8109 again wartime issues preventing any more conversions. Note the original prototype number 99, became 3100, then 5100 then 8100. Four different numbers for one engine!

 

Any potential manufacturer has some serious research to conduct.

 

Mike Wiltshire

Perhaps it would be better if a manufacturer chose a prototype that was simple and straightforward, like a Midland/LMS 2F...

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There are enough GWR tanks around already. What we need is some non-gangwayed GWR coaches to put behind our 56xx tanks to model passenger trains in the Cardiff valleys prior to their replacement by class 116 DMUs.

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Having seen the long list of Hornby items deferred into 2015 (four or five pages of them), is there any truth in the rumour that the 2015 Hornby catalogue will just be a sticker to put on the front of the 2014 edition?

 

John

 

Wasn't it the 1985 Hornby Catalogue that was a reprint of the previous year's one with a couple of extra pages added either in the middle or on the outside?  Seem to recall one from around that time looking almost identical throughout.  So the 2014 catalogue with a sticker may not be as far fetched after all!

 

 

A new in-house Hornby Hobbies Club (combined with Airfix, Scalextric and with fewer issues) is to replace the Hornby Collector's Club as well as the others.  A £20 discount for purchases made on the website will be offered, costing £20 for print and £15 for online only membership according to a flyer I picked up at Warley.  I was not a member of the original club and haven't seen any issues of them but wasn't that a combined one and had to be relaunched after a short period of time in the 1990s?  This could well be seen as another way to "encourage" people to go direct to Hornby and not to what model shops are remaining.

 

I don't know how far in advance models are planned and allocated production slots but we may see what was intended as the 2015 Hornby Collectors' Club loco being sold as a "website and concessions exclusive", maybe even items planned for the 2016 range as well. As for Hornby Roadshow wagons which were not on sale or given away at, erm, Roadshows such as Warley just gone, more red wagons with Hornby's name on the outside as so-called exclusives to buy?

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In regards to several of your points

 

1. Why do you assume that My part of the world would be modelling in 1:87? I model British OO gauge in 1:76 scale.

 

2. Where do you get the information that Hornby is modelling in 1:87? They are modelling in 1:76 but using 16.5mm track due to the fact when OO gauge was first created, the chassis and motion was a lot cruder than it is now, so the track width was reduced to allow motion and all associated parts to fit. The body's were still to 1:76 scale.

 

3. Our main train service in Auckland NZ, which runs on narrow gauge 3'6" track, leased an entire fleet of suburban DMU's from Australia which runs Narrow Gauge 3'6", standard gauge 4'8 1/2", and Broad Gauge 5'3" track.

  Firstly apologies for lumping NZ with AUS.  Sorry. Superficial just because of same official language and both flags having the Southern Cross and UK's Union Jack  and both at least 10000 miles away, but there are 3 hour's flight between them not just a 25 minute train journey under the sea! Then lots of other things.

 

 1 - Honestly I know nothing strictly speaking about NZ modelling scene. The comments about HO should have applied to AUS. 

      What I know about AUS models are:  Lima's exports (to be taken with a big pinch of salt judging from what they did to nearer more familiar countries!!).

                                                                 Visiting e-Bay (the wonders of internet making a global village!) on their AUS site. They do talk about railways and not railroads!

                                                                 A fellow railway enthusiast from Rome who lived studying and working as engineer in Melbourne for 10 years in the 70s and is still in touch.

  He assured me the Australian scene is strictly HO and quite good too with local production  beside lots of imports too including British HO and OO due to multinational origins of a lot of AUS people.  Gone are the days of http://www.tri-ang.co.uk/OONew/VR257.htmtaking advantage of former Commonwealth trade preference!

 Their real railways  notorious for their multiple gauges (worse than Europe with Russian,  Hiberian and Irish gauges are or (were to be precise) a mixture of British loco and wagons with European stile buffers and screw couplings and more modern USA stile sometimes with both AAR automatic couplers and UIC screws on the same engine! Just like a big Rivarossi based train set mixing everything  from both sides of the Atlantic!

 Interesting place to source British stile HO trains and  bits of them!

 

 2- It is now some years that Hornby has one of the major trade stands (even  bigger than Roco/Fleschmann) at model shows such as Novegro (Linate, Milano) besides being sold in most  model shops in Italy.  You can see all their numerous catalogues!  The 2013 Hornby/Rivarossi edition (Italian/English) has 136 pages and the 2014 Hornby (no mention of Triang but featuring its couplings) edition in English only has 140 pages. The N. of models per page is about the same. The pages about the series 6 track and electrical gear (Hammant & Morgan)  are repeated  in all editions! They are all A4 size. At least some consistency there to ease filing.

  Add  the HornbyLima, HornbyJouef, and HornbyElectren and some other edition and there  OO is in minority as it is associated usually  with Triang's harpoons but there are exceptions.  . There is some residual 1:80 but you have to know where to look for it, it isn't declared. You are better off buying the real Como made item even if expensive as it is now collectable.

I would like to post a recent Hornby acquisition (not too bad!) but how do you post photos please?

 Inspite of the cover's declarations on OO or HO you do have to watch out! There is unexpected cross-mixing of origins or new stuff such as the BR motorail wagon of Lima's origin.

 Having a common track geometry helps even if it means ditching heritage collections. Sadly the quality of it would make both Mr. Hornby and Rossi turn in their graves. To the point that some local shops are able to sell the equivalent PECO SetTrack at higher price (mark up) besides brands like Tillig from ex-DDR but not de-facto Euro geometry as the ex-series 6.  Don't they cost the same in UK?

 

 The gripes about accuracy of liveries and details, availability, duplications, pricing mentioned in this thead are similar (just in a different language)!!

 This is what caught my attention!

 

3- Regarding you real second hand DMUs from Australia are there any models. If so in what scale and track gauge? I doubt 1:76 if from AUS.

 

  Incidentally what about the real ex-BR Mark2 coaches imported from UK second hand? Any models? Scale?  If like Roco NS 600 ie: Dutch EE  shunter. Hurrà treatment with Humbrol colours.

 

 I suspect that if Lima had ventured into NZ outline (forgotten due to smallness and remoteness of country?) we would have had the repeat of the South African range becoming standard gauge! Would it? Same 1067mm 3'6" gauge!

 

 Again sorry about long letter again.

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It isn't. Hornby's portfolio is international, but each brand - Hornby, Jouef, Electrotren etc - has its own scale, according to the principal country in which it is offered.

 

Any move away from 1:76 in the UK would be Hornby's doom.

  I am afraid given the recent responses, to these post, a move from 1:76 for British outline may reduce sales and profits, but it will be offset by sales of coehent scale British outline to modellers outside UK. Like there are British modellers modelling non British trains the opposite happens too and this will offset domestic losses!  Not all people outside GB are anti-GB.

  Obviously one has to take it easy (already mentioned) but long term you may find that export (from where... China ?) sales in other countries (nowardays more interested in hobbies and with disposable income too than before) may offset loss in UK.

  Incidentally how is that establishment from Margate viewed in your part of the world?

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So, are you are saying that if Hornby changed the scale of it's UK outline models to H0, the subsequent collapse in it's domestic sales of 00 would be offset by sales of UK outline models, in H0 scale, to modellers outside the UK?

 

I really think not.

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I agree, if someone elsewhere in the world want to model the UK scene, they will probably just do what UK modellers do and either make do with 00 or convert to EM/P4. I seriously doubt there is an untapped international market just waiting for British HO gauge.

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  Firstly apologies for lumping NZ with AUS.  Sorry. Superficial just because of same official language and both flags having the Southern Cross and UK's Union Jack  and both at least 10miles away, but there are 3 hour's flight between them not just a 25 minute train journey under the sea! Then lots of other things.

 

 1 - Honestly I know nothing strictly speaking about NZ modelling scene. The comments about HO should have applied to AUS. 

      What I know about AUS models are:  Lima's exports (to be taken with a big pinch of salt judging from what they did to nearer more familiar countries!!).

                                                                 Visiting e-Bay (the wonders of internet making a global village!) on their AUS site. They do talk about railways and not railroads!

                                                                 A fellow railway enthusiast from Rome who lived studying and working as engineer in Melbourne for 10 years in the 70s and is still in touch.

  He assured me the Australian scene is strictly HO and quite good too with local production  beside lots of imports too including British HO and OO due to multinational origins of a lot of AUS people.  Gone are the days of http://www.tri-ang.co.uk/OONew/VR257.htmtaking advantage of former Commonwealth trade preference!

 Their real railways  notorious for their multiple gauges (worse than Europe with Russian,  Hiberian and Irish gauges are or (were to be precise) a mixture of British loco and wagons with European stile buffers and screw couplings and more modern USA stile sometimes with both AAR automatic couplers and UIC screws on the same engine! Just like a big Rivarossi based train set mixing everything stuff from both side of the Atlantic!

 Interesting place to source British stile HO trains and  bits of them!

 

 2- It is now some years that Hornby has one of the major trade stands (even  bigger than Roco/Fleschmann) at model shows such as Novegro (Linate, Milano) besides being sold in most  model shops in Italy.  You can see all their numerous catalogues!  The 2013 Hornby/Rivarossi edition (Italian/English) has 136 pages and the 2014 Hornby (no mention of Triang but featuring its couplings) edition in English only has 140 pages. The N. of models per page is about the same. The pages about the series 6 track and electrical gear (Hammant & Morgan)  are repeated  in all editions! They are all A4 size. At least some consistency there to ease filing.

  Add  the HornbyLima, HornbyJouef, and HornbyElectren and some other edition and there  OO is in minority as it is associated usually  with Triang's harpoons but there are exceptions.  . There is some residual 1:80 but you have to know where to look for it, it isn't declared. You are better off buying the real Como made even if expensive.

I would like to post a recent Hornby acquisition (not too bad!) but how do you post photos please.

 Inspite of the cover's declarations on OO or HO you do have to watch out! There is unexpected cross-mixing of origins or new stuff such as the BR motorail wagon of Lima's origin.

 Having a common track geometry helps even if it means ditching heritage collections. Sadly the quality of it would make both Mr. Hornby and Rossi turn in their graves. To the point that some local shops are able to sell the equivalent PECO SetTrack at higher price (mark up) besides brands like Tillig from ex-DDR but not de-factor Euro geometry ex series 6.  Don't they cost the same in UK?

 

 The gripes about accuracy of liveries and details, availability, duplications, pricing mentioned in this thead are similar (just in a different language)!!

 This is what caught my attention!

 

3- Regarding you real second hand DMUs from Australia are there any models. If so in what scale and track gauge? I doubt 1:76 if from AUS.

 

  Incidentally what about the real ex-BR Mark2 coaches imported from UK second hand? Any models? Scale?  If like Roco NS 600 ie: Dutch EE  shunter. Hurrà treatment with Humbrol colours.

 

 I suspect that if Lima had ventured into NZ outline (forgotten due to smallness and remoteness of country?) we would have had the repeat of the South African range becoming standard gauge! Would it? Same 1067mm 3'6" gauge!

 

 Again sorry about long letter again.

 I am the one who has given you the 'indecipherable' rating on your post, because I'm really not sure where you are going with this.

 

I take it from your signature that you model British outline in HO scale, which you are entitled to do if you wish.  As you say there are some resources already, like the Roco NS500 which can be made into an 08/09, plus the former Lima & Playcraft ranges and for anyone who is interested in the possibilities of British HO, then http://www.british-ho.freeserve.co.uk/index.htm is well worth a look.

 

I would like to ask why you are posing these questions in the 'Hornby 2015 range' thread?  A lot of your arguments about a British company doing 'OO' whilst their international division produces 'HO' could also be levelled at Kader Industries who produce Bachmann 'OO' for the UK and 'HO' for their European, American and Chinese markets so would this subject not be better in its own thread?

 

This hobby is about compromises, be that scale, wheel profile, gauge, not to mention manufacturing compromises to ensure that it works straight out of the box and can be supplied at a competitive price.  If you are not happy with the gauge, then you go for EM or P4, but I suspect the vast majority of modellers who buy 'OO' stock are perfectly happy with this long standing scale/gauge compromise.  Yes I will agree that 4mm scale 'OO' gauge is a peculiarly British compromise, but that doesn't necessarily make it wrong for the UK market, just different.

 

Just because most of the rest of world uses 1:87 scale for HO, is not a valid reason for replacing a scale/gauge combination that has been in use in this country for over 75 years and has a vast amount of time and money invested in tooling and moulds.  Even DJ Models has admitted in another thread that he is producing a model in 'OO' first rather than 'N' because that is where the money is - and it is financial business decisions that will ultimately decide which scale prospers, not some arbitrary desire to standardise the numbers.

 

Like I say, if you want to model British outline in 'HO' you are perfectly free to do so, but I do think it will remain a minority scale for historical and especially for financial reasons - the British market is too entrenched in 4mm scale to change now, unless somebody wins several lotteries and offers to pay all the tooling costs for all the manufacturers to change from 'OO' to 'HO' at the same time.

 

Regards

 

Paul

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Just come across this on google.........I was at Warley god knows how I missed the Hornby stand. More info here for anyone else like who walks around with their eyes closed!   http://www.Hornby.com/news/warley2014/

 

Class-71-CAD-2.jpg

 

I also had problems finding the Hornby stand.  Lots of traders with flags and what have you high above but nothing on Hornby's, so much for brand awareness!  I missed it a few times.

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  I am afraid given the recent responses, to these post, a move from 1:76 for British outline may reduce sales and profits, but it will be offset by sales of coehent scale British outline to modellers outside UK. Like there are British modellers modelling non British trains the opposite happens too and this will offset domestic losses!  Not all people outside GB are anti-GB.

  Obviously one has to take it easy (already mentioned) but long term you may find that export (from where... China ?) sales in other countries (nowardays more interested in hobbies and with disposable income too than before) may offset loss in UK.

  Incidentally how is that establishment from Margate viewed in your part of the world?

So you suggest it would be a good idea for Hornby to bin all their existing product lines, some of which they cannot produce in sufficient quantities to fill more than a fraction of known orders, to make room in their production schedules for a new range of models in a different scale for which you THINK there is great potential demand, somewhere in the world.

 

Don't you think that, if such demand really existed, established HO manufacturers would already be enthusiastically satisfying it? For them, launching British outline models should be a (relatively) low-risk extension of their existing activities. For Hornby/Bachmann etc, it would mean turning their entire business model on its head.

 

Those that have tried or contemplated introducing British outline models in HO (and there have been a few) do not appear to have found significant traces of such a demand, otherwise, they wouldn't have given up on the idea.

 

In almost all nations where railway modelling exists as a hobby, the main market is for models of locos and stock that can (or could once) be seen in that country. The only thing that is different about Britain is that we make ours a different size and NONE of the people who would have to pay the price of change are up for it.  

 

In response to your final point, I think the current image of Hornby is rather like the prodigal son - he's upset a lot of us one way or another lately but most will welcome him home with open arms once he comes to his senses!

 

John

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Although I can't bring myself to go through the topic from the start, I have formed the opinion over the last few days that they doesn't seem to be as much excitement over this years announcements.

 

If I could be bothered to check I'm inclined to think that half the posts on this thread have been about either:

 

1 Hornby's evil intentions to putm everyone small firm out of business

2 laser scanning

and now

3 British HO?

 

rather than what Hornby might be announcing. I am aware that most threads on RMweb go rambling off topic, but this one does seem to have lost any momentum.

 

Now it may be that Hornby's announcements during the year has taken some of the excitement out of things, or that their failure to deliver on 2013/14 announcements has produced something on a jaundiced approach to the annual wish list fest that it this thread. Starting this thread somewhat earlier than usual will no doubt also have had an effect.

 

All I can say is that I remain disappointed, as I do enjoy the froth :-(

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Although I can't bring myself to go through the topic from the start, I have formed the opinion over the last few days that they doesn't seem to be as much excitement over this years announcements.

 

If I could be bothered to check I'm inclined to think that half the posts on this thread have been about either:

 

1 Hornby's evil intentions to putm everyone small firm out of business

2 laser scanning

and now

3 British HO?

 

rather than what Hornby might be announcing. I am aware that most threads on RMweb go rambling off topic, but this one does seem to have lost any momentum.

 

Now it may be that Hornby's announcements during the year has taken some of the excitement out of things, or that their failure to deliver on 2013/14 announcements has produced something on a jaundiced approach to the annual wish list fest that it this thread. Starting this thread somewhat earlier than usual will no doubt also have had an effect.

 

All I can say is that I remain disappointed, as I do enjoy the froth :-(

With announcements every 5 minutes from all over the place, there is not much to froth about!

 

I don,t think Hornby have evil plans. Indeed the magazines visited Hornby early this year, got hints of what was coming for 2015 (but kept their mouths shut) before any of the duplicates were announced.

 

They could put asleep right away some of rumours if they saw some/all of these duplicates under development back then.

 

I don,t think they would purposely use resources they don,t have to try and sink new manufacturers.

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