Hattons announce 14xx / 48xx / 58xx

[Paul_sterling]

DJ Models/Hattons 48XX facing original Airfix 48XX for comparison:

 

48XXs.jpg

 

Keith

thanks for that Keith, I was hoping someone would do a face to face comparison of the two, I was almost at the point of buying one soley for that purpose (maybe)

 

Paul.

[Ian Hargrave]

I posted that as an example of how a factory fitted plate can be way worse. At least the 14xx has generally straight plates fitted, thanks to the recess. The recess is a great idea but does need some refinement to be done properly.

I am at a loss as to why you find it necessary to respond to a post that refers to Brushman47544's opinion on the matter. Might he be allowed the courtesy of posting his own reply ? I'm sure he is quite capable of so doing.

[coachmann]

Wow, bit strong. Perhaps a more tolerant response along the lines of 'having examined mine I am satisfied they are metal'. Where is there the need to criticise a magazine in that way by linking them to your bete noire, the supposed 'Box Opener'. When I did work on a 14xx chassis yesterday, I noticed the coupling rods were much thicker than those on the Kernow 02, produced by the same maker and with the same drive system, so the information did seem relevant. I put my post on to pass on a warning, won't bother again.

No pal, any magazine that tells its readers the coupling rods are plastic is deserving of the title I gave it. I assist people, which you would know if you looked at my modelling threads. 

Edited February 20, 2017 by Andy Y

[Coppercap]

DJ Models/Hattons 48XX facing original Airfix 48XX for comparison:

 

48XX.jpg

 

Keith

 

EDIT I'll throw another log onto the fire:

Why is the safety valve cover brass? An official Swindon picture of 4800 isn't.

 

it was all down to the shedmaster at Southall in the late '30s - he was an old boy (as they typically were), and when he started his driving career he was on the earlier 0-4-2Ts, which back then used to have lots of shiny bits, and he was proud to be driving them. He didn't care what Swindon now thought, it was one of his engines, not theirs, and it'll be as shiny and clean as he wants it to be!   

That's also why the smokebox steam cock and the ring at the joint between the boiler and smokebox have also had their paint scraped off and the brass polished up by the shed cleaners. 

 

(Yes, you are correct, but I'm certainly going to paint the steam cock black, it looks far too conspicuous in brass sitting out on the front!)

[Hilux5972]

I am at a loss as to why you find it necessary to respond to a post that refers to Brushman47544's opinion on the matter. Might he be allowed the courtesy of posting his own reply ? I'm sure he is quite capable of so doing.

He asked what the Dapol 68 had to the DJM 14xx. I responded with the explanation as to why I reposted that.

[Ian Hargrave]

He asked what the Dapol 68 had to the DJM 14xx. I responded with the explanation as to why I reposted that.

OK but that's when doing things "second hand" leads to misunderstanding because Dapol and DJM are now as you are aware separate entities.From his post it would appear Brushmann doesn't know that.

[Ventnor]

So....I don't often reply to posts and topics on the forums but I've been fervently reading any posts that review these models. My one question is; do the coupling rods stay parallel when the loco is moving or do they adopt a drunken angle even for a few seconds or get out of sync? I ask as I have two 14xx's on pre-order and considering a 58xx. I had problems with all four of the DJM O2's that I purchashed and sent one back as it was so bad. Sharing experiences with the 48xx/14xx and 58xx's would be most appreciated.

[brushman47544]

What have the plates on the Class 68 to do with the issue of the Hattons DJM tank ? Where's the connection?

Hilux5972 first raised the Class 68. The point I was trying to make was that if a factory (do Dapol and DJM use the same one?) cannot fit etched plates straight then I can see why DJM has gone for the recesses. But equally I would prefer printed plates and fit my own etched ones. The recesses look awful and make renumbering more difficult.

[ROSSPOP]

Sadly there is so much slop in the coupling rod crank pins that they will do little else than take on angles other than parallel to the track or footplate when running.

 

As someone has already pointed out they are cosmetic rods as both axles are geared.

 

it did`nt look  good with N gauge Minitrix in the 70`s

 

And it certainly does`nt look good in 4mm now.

 

Sadly I shall be passing mine on .......................................................................................................

Edited February 20, 2017 by ROSSPOP

[Izzy]

So....I don't often reply to posts and topics on the forums but I've been fervently reading any posts that review these models. My one question is; do the coupling rods stay parallel when the loco is moving or do they adopt a drunken angle even for a few seconds or get out of sync? I ask as I have two 14xx's on pre-order and considering a 58xx. I had problems with all four of the DJM O2's that I purchashed and sent one back as it was so bad. Sharing experiences with the 48xx/14xx and 58xx's would be most appreciated.

 

I would assume it will be the same basic design of all-geared axles as used in a lot of recent arrivals from DJM. This seems to be a N gauge and diesel bogie drive design that is now being introduced in 4mm models. N gaugers have long had the issue of coupling rods going this way and that because of it, and have just had to accept/put up with it. It doesn't matter with diesels of course.

 

Because there will always be a measure of lag with gears in a gear train this will always exist whichever way the gears are rotating, and of course the more intermediate gears there are the larger the lag will be. The coupling rods no longer perform any useful function such as transmitting drive, - they can't as they would 'fight' the gearing - and are thus purely cosmetic, just going along for the ride.

 

Izzy

[Miss Prism]

I would assume it will be the same basic design of all-geared axles as used in a lot of recent arrivals from DJM. This seems to be a N gauge and diesel bogie drive design that is now being introduced in 4mm models.

 

I think Bachmann's City of Truro was the first 4-coupled in 4mm to have gears on both driving wheels?

[locoholic]

I have a HO Roco Bavarian Mallet tank with geared drive to all wheels and the intricate valve gear and coupling rods behave themselves perfectly, so the concept is no problem - any problems arise from poor design and/or manufacture.

[Tom F]

Currently awaiting my new model after the poor running of the 58XX I returned. I really have my fingers crossed this one will be a good runner.

 

I did notice how sloppy the con rods were, it surely would have been a lot simpler to gear on one axle, and let the con rods do the work they are supposed to do (as on the prototype). 

 

I was originally going to have two of these, however I'm generally now thinking about the second one being the Railroad model coming out later this year. With a DCC chassis, repaint and the mainly trains detailing kit...it shouldn't be too shabby. 

 

It all depends on how well this replacement runs.

Edited February 20, 2017 by 9793

[Ian Hargrave]

Sadly there is so much slop in the coupling rod crank pins that they will do little else than take on angles other than parallel to the track or footplate when running.

 

As someone has already pointed out they are cosmetic rods as both axles are geared.

 

it did`nt look  good with N gauge Minitrix in the 70`s

 

And it certainly does`nt look good in 4mm now.

 

Sadly I shall be passing mine on .......................................................................................................

Oh dear....now we have Rodgate it seems..There seems to be little positive in this thread at present.What a shame it's meeting a chorus of disapproval.Gave my old Airfix rechassied and cosmetically detailed14XX a spin yesterday and apart from some degree of stuttering over point work it stands up rather well.I don't particularly care for the appearance of the rods on the Hattons/DJM examples either.IMHO it lets it down.Well if you're letting it go.....etc.etc....

[coachmann]

If I were still into 4mm scale/00, I would have considered having rods etched. Trouble is, without experimentation, I wonder if the slop in those large holes in the knuckles are essential for a geared pair of driving wheels. If they are, then slimmer rods would be a waste of time. I for one will be interested to see what Hornby turns up with its forthcoming Railroad 14XX. A good mechanism with blackened rods with smaller nuckles would be a good start IMO.

[The Stationmaster]

Hilux5972 first raised the Class 68. The point I was trying to make was that if a factory (do Dapol and DJM use the same one?) cannot fit etched plates straight then I can see why DJM has gone for the recesses. But equally I would prefer printed plates and fit my own etched ones. The recesses look awful and make renumbering more difficult.

 

I understand (hopefully correctly) that the Dapol Class 68 is not coming from the factory which DJM use.

 

As far as I can establish the recess for the numberplate is a DJM/factory idea and appears not to have been specified by the original commissioner (as also applies with another model from the same manufacturing stable which will hopefully be appearing soon where the recess appeared at the EP stage.

[Miss Prism]

I did notice how sloppy the con rods were, it surely would have been a lot simpler to gear on one axle, and let the con rods do the work they are supposed to do (as on the prototype). 

 

I think we should remember this is a cheap toy and a cheap design that circumvents the manufacturer's inability or unwillingness to correlate axle and rod centres.

Edited February 20, 2017 by Miss Prism

[sp1]

I'm not planning to try it, but would it be possible to remove some of the gears so that only one axle is driven, and then add etched rods?

 

Just an idle thought......

[Paul_sterling]

Folks,

 

surely rather than have oversize holes giving clearance in every direction, a set of etched rods with a sloted hole at one end would allow for good positional tolerance (by the reduced clearance on the hole end) and still allow for the 'lash of the gears at the minutely slotted end. the slot probably wouldn't be visible under the crankpin. 

 

Paul. 

Edited February 20, 2017 by Paul_sterling

[Paul_sterling]

 

I think we should remember this is a cheap toy and a cheap design that circumvents the manufacturer's inability or unwillingness to correlate axle and rod centres.

 

 

Can we really call it a cheap toy in this instance. I'm not wanting to sound pedantic but cheap is a relative term that implies that an item is either sold at a lower price than its competitors or is made to less stringent standards in order to reduce the selling price relative to its competitors. Even with today's prices £99 is a lot to pay for a tank loco, though that being said, others are creeping up to that point quietly. 

 

for example, a DJM 14xx is cheap compared to a kitbuilt 14xx, but it is expensive compared to a Hornby 14xx, or a used Airfix 14xx. 

Edited February 20, 2017 by Paul_sterling

[Miss Prism]

I'm not planning to try it, but would it be possible to remove some of the gears so that only one axle is driven, and then add etched rods?

 

The axle centres are not designed or defined with that kind of accuracy.

[PMP]

Folks,

 

surely rather than have oversize holes giving clearance in every direction, a set of etched rods with a sloted hole at one end would allow for good positional tolerance (by the reduced clearance on the hole end) and still allow for the 'lash of the gears at the minutely slotted end. the slot probably wouldn't be visible under the crankpin. 

 

Paul. 

 

That would appear to be the solution on the Kernow 13xx chassis if the EP I've handled is indicative of the final product. That means then the original design is poor if you have to design a further compromise into the mechanism to make it work effectively. Slotted coupling rods? I do hope not, particularly when the German products (as far as I'm aware) that use as similar design work effectively without the need to slot the rods.

 

My 58xx has arrived and I'm pleased with the overall look of it, so now off to play trains.

[Miss Prism]

surely rather than have oversize holes giving clearance in every direction, a set of etched rods with a sloted hole at one end would allow for good positional tolerance (by the reduced clearance on the hole end) and still allow for the 'lash of the gears at the minutely slotted end. the slot probably wouldn't be visible under the crankpin. 

 

Even with such a slot, the angle of the rods to the horizontal would still be dependent on the amount of backlash in the gear train.

[JSpencer]

I have a HO Roco Bavarian Mallet tank with geared drive to all wheels and the intricate valve gear and coupling rods behave themselves perfectly, so the concept is no problem - any problems arise from poor design and/or manufacture.

 

Are the gears brass on Roco? I can imagine them using a tight gear chain will little slop. This might be hard to do with nylon gears but possible with Brass.

 

The crux of the question is, does the (shall I call it) DJM method of Nylon gears and loose con rods cause bad running or not? Reading the above, I wonder how much is real and how much psychological.  You know "oh, that's different, but I don't like it".

 

This method has been around with first the Dapol Well tank then the same Well tank under DJM (motor changed), then the O2s, then the J94s and now out with the 48XXs. So getting on for 5 years but the well tank, O2s and J94 threads are not blistering in comments about this approach.

Likewise I have many 4mm models using just con rods for transmission with a lot of slack, however they only ever caused running issues if the quartering was out.

 

I am not saying there is no problem, just how much is psychological? how much is real? if real, is it design or assembly? does it go away with running in. Some people are full of praise on the running qualities here while others are quite the opposite and there are no in-between comments.

[ROSSPOP]

Just to say folks..........................

 

There is much to like about this loco........

 

The mechanism however , kills it for me as it is unfixable on this modellers workbench...................

 

She will be on the B&S sometime this week at a reduced rate.........................................

 

John