H 33 restaurant carriage finished

[westerner]

At the moment I am doing a slight upgrade on the Hornby Collett restaurant car. replacing moulded hand rails and altering the carriage ends as I did on the BCK version some time back..

 

The question is did they survive long enough to be painted in BR maroon? If they did does anybody know the numbers of any that were repainted. The model I'm working on is the WR version in blood and custard.

Edited January 17, 2015 by westerner

[Coach bogie]

They did survive to maroon but you need to replace all the main windows with top slide/Mk 1 type as they were all rebuilt before nationalisation.

 

58ft Restaurant – H.33

Lot Number Date Cond

1349 9578 8/25 3/59

         9579 8/25 3/61

         9580 8/25 8/60 Later H58 Buffet car. SV DW150266

         9581 8/25 5/59

Mike Wiltshire

Edited November 20, 2014 by Coach bogie

[westerner]

Thanks chaps very much. All I've got to do is work out how to get the body off before I start carving. Any Tips?

[westerner]

Thanks 81C

[M.I.B]

Leave them somewhere warm for a while before removing the glazing - airing cupboard or ontop of a radiator - the glazing pops out with less chance of brittleness/shattering.

[westerner]

Just one last question when they were painted Maroon did they have the coach roundel on them?

 

Thanks in anticipation.

[Andy M]

Just one last question when they were painted Maroon did they have the coach roundel on them?

Alan,

 

I have never seen evidence of any of the ex-GWR catering vehicles in BR Maroon or Chocolate/Cream carrying the coach roundel. The vast majority had been withdrawn by 1961/62 when the roundel became prevalent.

 

Regards,

 

Andy.

[westerner]

Yet another last question. Would the lining on a maroon ex-GWR carriage have been yellow and black or gold and black? Looking at my maroon Hornby Hawkesworths and Bachmann Collets with my eye sight I'm not sure.

[Andy M]

 Would the lining on a maroon ex-GWR carriage have been yellow and black or gold and black?

 

Hi westerner,

 

Maroon coaches were lined in Yellow & Black (I think the official term was Golden Yellow), which was distinctly different to the Gold & Black used on Carmine/Cream and Chocolate/Cream. See the close up of the H57 below, which I hope helps.

 

 

 

Regards,

 

Andy.

[westerner]

Thanks to all who have answered my queries. I'm just waiting for Wizard models to take over the Comet range before ordering the bits.

[70021 Morning Star]

Hi Folks,

Great topic, and excellent timing, as I need to model a BR(Western Region) RU for the periods 1957-58 and June 1960 (a bit precise, I know).   

 

Mike ("Coach Bogie") says that "you need to replace all the main windows with Mk1 slide type". Ok, that sounds good, but we're going to need some photographic reference material of the Collett with modified BR(W) windows, and I can't find any. Help, please?

 

Also, Andy, stop teasing us with that single picture. It looks great. More photographs, please!

 

Many thanks,

Rick

[Adrian Wintle]

Well, there is this - in Inspection Saloon form, but you can see the windows.

http://www.cs.vintagecarriagestrust.org/se/CarriageInfo.asp?Ref=256

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/sparrowhawk7/7569976328/

 

Adrian

[Coach bogie]

Here is my shot of 9580 while still in BR service in 1985.

 

 

Mike Wiltshire

[70021 Morning Star]

Hello Adrian and Mike,

Great feedback, thanks. Hmmm, I'm thinking it might be simplest to start with a Mk1 'buffet car', which has the correct windows, and work backwards, rather than modifying a Collett restaurant. Any thoughts?

 

Thanks,

Rick

[Adrian Wintle]

Hello Adrian and Mike,

Great feedback, thanks. Hmmm, I'm thinking it might be simplest to start with a Mk1 'buffet car', which has the correct windows, and work backwards, rather than modifying a Collett restaurant. Any thoughts?

 

Thanks,

Rick

 

I'd be inclined to use brass sides on the Hornby coach. Comet does them and Worsley Works does them in 3mm (and may be convinced to do a set in 4mm).

 

If you want to work in plastic, I wouldn't start with a Mk1 - everything except the windows would be wrong, while the Hornby coach is at least more-or-less the correct shape and has the correct kitchen windows.

 

Adrian

[70021 Morning Star]

Hi Andy,

Any product code numbers for your suggested brass sides? Those websites tend to lack pictures, so it's impossible to know what I'm looking at.

 

Cheers,

Rick

[Taz]

The comet code is W29b

 

http://www.cometmodels.co.uk/modules/viewcatpic.php/8/640

[70021 Morning Star]

Excellent - and these guys have pictures too!

 

Thanks, Taz, I'll be ordering one of those.

 

Rick

[chrisf]

 I need to model a BR(Western Region) RU for the periods 1957-58 and June 1960 (a bit precise, I know).   

 

 

You do realise that this is an RC and not an RU?

 

Chris

[Ressaldar]

Hi, Rick,

 

I'm doing a similar conversion as you, but in 7mm and using the JLTRT H33 (with modified window openings) kit as the 'basis' of to produce my model of the S&T Inspection Saloon. I attach a photo of a window on the preserved Inspection Saloon and a set showing the slow progress of the conversion of the sides, which may be of help to you.

 

cheers

 

Mike

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Clive Mortimore]

At the moment I am doing a slight upgrade on the Hornby Collett restaurant car. replacing moulded hand rails and altering the carriage ends as I did on the BCK version some time back..

 

The question is did they survive long enough to be painted in BR maroon? If they did does anybody know the numbers of any that were repainted. The model I'm working on is the WR version in blood and custard.

Hi Alan

 

All your livery questions should be answered by this booklet http://www.barrowmoremrg.co.uk/BRBDocuments/BRCoachLetteringIssue.pdf

 

Do you have the Russell GWR coach books? If not I will check them for information on the H33 RC and PM you what I find out.

[70021 Morning Star]

Hello Mike / Clive, All,

Thanks for the reply and pictures.

 

Wow, that's a useful document, Clive!!!

 

I have to confess, I am not that knowledgeable on this subject, so please bear with me. Chris, err, sort of, yes/maybe. I'm thinking about the 1957-58 Red Dragon for 70021 Morning Star. Am I correct? Thanks.

 

Chris has been advising me on another thread. I'm after a GWR-designed restaurant unit for the Red Dragon. I understand this is Collett based. So hope this is what we're talking about here. I'm really far more knowledgeable on aviation subjects like the V bombers. Hard to imagine that something like a Handley-Page Victor nuclear bomber is contemporaneous with a Britannia class steam locomotive like Morning Star!

 

So, assuming we have the appropriate GWR designed restaurant unit.., and that I only need a restaurant car; not a kitchen + dining parlour car, as two separate coaches(?). To begin with, I could do with left and right side views of the Collett restaurant coach. Mike, am I correct in thinking that these are shown in the painted versions of your carriage sides?

 

My other difficulty is cost. Those brass sides, suggested by Brian, look excellent, but the cost isn't justifiable when it'll be sitting alongside unmodified oo-scale Hornby and Bachmann plastics. So I'm going to have to base my depiction on a plastic carriage. As far as I can see (showing my ignorance, maybe?) it should be possible to cut-and-shunt the relevant side sections of a Bachmann or Hornby Mk1 coach, to get the doors and windows in the right places(?).

 

As I understand it, during BR(Western Region)'s chocolate and brown period, they used a GWR-designed Collett restaurant car (as depicted by Hornby's R458 GWR Collett Restaurant Car), which would have had its square windows replaced with BR standard Mk1 coach type windows. So, I could retrofit the Mk1 windows in a Hornby R458) or start with a better Bachmann/Hornby Mk1, possibly the Bachmann 33-261 miniature buffet, and move things like doors and windows around to their correct positions.

 

Thoughts/advise please.

 

Rick

Edited December 13, 2014 by Rascally Bear

[Coach bogie]

The BRWR Choc/Cream period involved mark 1 stock. However the WR was late getting mark 1 dining vehicles and a number of GWR designs were modified to run with mark 1 stock. This involved the fitting of an 'adapter' to the gangways to enable them to be attached to the Pullman type fitted as standard on mark 1's. To find which coaches were so modified look for the Pullman style gangways on the end. For instance all five of the H57 were so fitted, mainly for the Bristolian and similar Bristol/Weston runs.

 

All the H33 were equipped with gangway adaptors in the early 1950’s. It may be best to avoid No.9580 as it was altered into a buffet car and given a new diagram, H.58 in November 1952, though it kept the original number.

 

It was the 70ft stock that appeared to be favoured more with the mark 1 C&C sets due to the great seating capacity with the shorter vehicles for the shorter runs.

 

For easier mark 1 windows, I would like to suggest purchasing a scrap Kitmaster mark 1 and use the windows. Flush glaze with the frames moulded in. Just a thought.

 

Mike Wiltshire

[chrisf]

In between spasms of preparing for a holiday I have been investigating WR named train diners.  The gist of my findings, from lots of issues of the Railway Observer, is that chocolate and cream livery for titled trains began with the summer timetable of 1956 - Cornish Riviera, Torbay Express and Bristolian first, others later and with the Red Dragon being re-equipped at the end of 1956.  At first all WR named trains used GWR design catering cars for the simple reason that there was very little to choose from as regards BR standard stock.  All the WR had at this time was the prototype RU W1900, five RFs W301-5 working with RSOs and two full kitchen cars W80007/8 forming triplets with a RFO [W7/8] on one side and a RSO on the other.  The triplets were only suitable for high demand full meal service.  

 

From the end of 1957 the production RUs arrived and gradually took the place of GW cars.  The Bristolian had to wait some more years for its RB and the Red Dragon did not get its BR design dining pair [W301+W1009] until the end of 1961.   During 1957 its regular dining pair was recorded as 9617+9586 and at the end of 1961 9619+9586.  There was some pick-and-mixing  and other stock must have been substituted from time to time but the upshot is that the Dragon had a dining pair: arriving in London at 1 pm and leaving at 5.55pm called for nothing less.  There were, I think, only five H33s [the diagram attempted by Hornby] and whether any of them sported BR choc-cream is something which I cannot answer yet.   I also need to look up which were the diagrams of the Dragon's pair.

 

As for how to model the Dragon and its diners, it is not my place as a fumbling coach builder to advise and it is of course much easier to give advice than it is to take it but a quote from Sir Humphrey Appleby may not be out of place: "If you are going to do this damn silly thing, do not do it in this damn silly way".  I would say, subject to the previous sentence, that brass sides are by far the best way of producing a rebuilt H33 but far better to devise a way of producing the dining pair.  There, I fear, there may not be such a ready solution.

 

Now if you will excuse me, gentle reader, it is time for me to find the woolly hat and scarf, for the matinee performance of the new Hobbit movie beckons.  Escapism?  You bet!

 

Chris

[70021 Morning Star]

Ah, Chris Baggins is it?,
[Laughing] I should have known you had hairy feet! Just be careful, as I have a very precious shiny gold ring on my finger...
 
So, my understanding is that:

• 70021's 1957-58 Red Dragon formation should include the dining pair 9617+9586.
• 92220's June 1960 named express runs could reuse the above dining pair on the Red Dragon (& use a BR RU on the Capitals United, with the coach formation supplied in the famous message #30.)

Humpy's comments are noted. BUT, please remember I'm new to railway modelling, WHAT ARE 9617 & 9586 in terms that a simpleton like me can understand?? Am I correct in thinking one of these is the H33 Collett, bow ended, Restaurant Composite shown at http://www.gwr.org.uk/rtr/Hornby-collett-restaurant.jpg? And the other is some kind of Collet, bow ended, Composite Open (Parlour?)??

 

Also, (getting very confused now) could anyone please tell me whether these Colletts would have had their windows upgraded to the Mk1 type at my featured 1957-58 running period, as per the coach design that's the subject of this discussion thread? I've read, somewhere, that all of BR(Western Region)'s older dining sets had their windows upgraded, by BR order, at the time they were repainted in BR(W)'s passenger express livery of chocolate and cream. 

 

Phew!

 

Enjoy the film.

 

Sauron
 

Edited December 13, 2014 by Rascally Bear