Electrofrog points-How to wire them on DC?

[GWR88]

Evening all,

I'm trying to build my new layout and have to install points. However, they're electrofrog ones. Is their a specific way to wire them or should i cut the wire that makes them electrofrog so they'll be insulfrog?

Thanks in advance,

Lloyd

P.S: they're N scale code 75 points.

[Chimer]

The answer is "don't cut".  Start at the link below to discover all you need to know ... it says it much better than I can.

 

 http://www.brian-lambert.co.uk/Electrical.html

[66C]

Hi Lloyd

 

You will also find some useful wiring diagrams here:

 

http://www.finescale.org.uk/index.php?route=information/information&information_id=9

 

The best way to wire "live frog" turnouts is to definitely cut the links and power the frog with an auxiliary switch. it is also good practice to link the switch and stock rails with a feed wire so that you are not reliant on switch blade contact for electrical continuity.

 

Regards.

[GWR88]

Thanks guys for the information. I've never really done wiring before (Help from my MRC) so i'll have to weigh up which option will be easier but still reliable

Lloyd

[kevinlms]

Evening all,

I'm trying to build my new layout and have to install points. However, they're electrofrog ones. Is their a specific way to wire them or should i cut the wire that makes them electrofrog so they'll be insulfrog?

Thanks in advance,

Lloyd

P.S: they're N scale code 75 points.

Whatever you do, DO NOT convert them to be Insulfrog points, you'd end up regretting a hasty decision.

 

Are the points OO Code 75 or N Gauge Code 80 or Code 55?

[BR60103]

Lloyd:

Changing to dead-frog points is the worst solution. The electrofrog section that would be dead is too long.

Test your locos through some points as they come. If they don't stall and short out, you can use them that way.  The problem is some stock that may have narrow gauge wheels that short between stock rail and the open point. (Both points are the same polarity).

If you have shorting, you will need to separate the frog by breaking those wires and adding a switch to power the frog. Best is a switch on the point motor, but I have also used a microswitch pushed by the point tie rod.

 I think Peco's instructions cover this.

[GWR88]

Thanks guys for the help. I'm using american diesels so their wheelbase is quite long which is why i considered changing them to deadfrogs. Kevin, the points are n gauge code 55 (I always get track codes mixed up!)

Lloyd

[beast66606]

Thanks guys for the help. I'm using american diesels so their wheelbase is quite long which is why i considered changing them to deadfrogs. Kevin, the points are n gauge code 55 (I always get track codes mixed up!)

Lloyd

 

As has been said, unless you are absolutely hopeless at wiring then do NOT make them dead frog, never ever, ever (imho)

 

Consider making yourself a small test track to try the wiring, it's not hard and it will build your confidence once you have it working, you can reuse everything in the actual layout once you're confident - your choice of course.

 

If you are still stuck ask away, there are plenty of people who will help you - such is the joy of the forum.

[kevinlms]

Thanks guys for the help. I'm using american diesels so their wheelbase is quite long which is why i considered changing them to deadfrogs. Kevin, the points are n gauge code 55 (I always get track codes mixed up!)

Lloyd

Yeah, I thought so, but thought I'd clarify.

Yes, while locos with lots of pick ups (its the number of pick ups, rather than loco length which is the better), more pick ups AND minimal insulated sections of track is infinitely better.

A giveaway on a layout with insulfrog points, is when the layout has been running for a number of hours (such as at an exhibition), you'll usually find dirty track near the frogs. This rarely occurs on live frog points, it all adds up to Best Practice. Sometimes over stated words when spoken by politicians! But for model railway frogs, very apt.

[talisman56]

I use Peco Code 55 electrofrog points and lay them straight out of the box, with the addition of a wire soldered to the frog assembly powered from the switch on a SEEP PM-1 motor (belt and braces method). Insulated rail joiners are a must on the ends of the frog rails. No shorting issues and if the blade contact goes iffy then the frog wire ensures continuous power supply.

[GWR88]

Thanks guys for the help. I shall wire the frog to the beginning of the point so the blades always have electricity. Talisman, i always felt insulated joiners were a waste of money, i just leave a gap between the rail. Also, from checking,i believe all of my diesels would go over the point frog if its insulated so i may try this but i'm still debating.

Lloyd

Edit: Forgot to mention a few things.

Edited November 23, 2014 by GWR88

[Danfilm007]

Stupid question, is it the same principle for Wire-In-Tube poing changing?

[kevinlms]

Stupid question, is it the same principle for Wire-In-Tube poing changing?

Not a stupid question. But the method of operation bears no relationship as to whether insulfrog or electrofrog.

[Danfilm007]

Not a stupid question. But the method of operation bears no relationship as to whether insulfrog or electrofrog.

Alrighty, cheers!

[talisman56]

Thanks guys for the help. I shall wire the frog to the beginning of the point so the blades always have electricity. Talisman, i always felt insulated joiners were a waste of money, i just leave a gap between the rail. Also, from checking,i believe all of my diesels would go over the point frog if its insulated so i may try this but i'm still debating.

Lloyd

Edit: Forgot to mention a few things.

 

I have always felt that the function of joiners are to keep the track aligned correctly, and let them do that, regardless of their other function in maintaining electrical continuity or otherwise. In that I differ in opinion of the worth of the plastic joiners. All my track sections have individual feeds...

Edited November 23, 2014 by talisman56

[chaz]

...... i always felt insulated joiners were a waste of money, i just leave a gap between the rail. ....

 

On a previous layout of mine I left out the insulated joiners - BAD IDEA! On a hot day I got a couple of short circuits which I eventually traced, after much searching and swearing, to the rails expanding and closing the gaps I had left. The expansion in a yard of rail can be significant. This was an HO layout and Peco insulated joiners have a tab in the slot that stops the gap closing - do N joiners have the same?

[talisman56]

On a previous layout of mine I left out the insulated joiners - BAD IDEA! On a hot day I got a couple of short circuits which I eventually traced, after much searching and swearing, to the rails expanding and closing the gaps I had left. The expansion in a yard of rail can be significant. This was an HO layout and Peco insulated joiners have a tab in the slot that stops the gap closing - do N joiners have the same?

 

Yes.

[rockershovel]

I’ve never understood why live frog points don’t result in a short circuit..

[WIMorrison]

1 hour ago, rockershovel said:

I’ve never understood why live frog points don’t result in a short circuit..

 

 

? why should they ?

[rockershovel]

Because I don’t know how they are wired, I suppose ...

[WIMorrison]

Here's a primer for you 

 

https://tonystrains.com/news/peco-electro-frog-turnouts-dcc/

 

You can ignore where it says DCC, there is absolutely no difference in wiring them for DC or DCC

Edited December 1, 2019 by WIMorrison

[rockershovel]

32 minutes ago, WIMorrison said:

you could learn

 

https://tonystrains.com/news/peco-electro-frog-turnouts-dcc/

 

 

 

That animation is quite instructive, although I do note that - 

 

(1) there ARE short circuits, but they can be ignored in DC (although not in DCC)

(2) like most references to live frog points, it seems to require modification to the structure of the unit as supplied (cutting the Factory Bonding Wires)

(3) they may require further modification if found to be troublesome 

 

 

[kevinlms]

31 minutes ago, rockershovel said:

 

That animation is quite instructive, although I do note that - 

 

(1) there ARE short circuits, but they can be ignored in DC (although not in DCC)

(2) like most references to live frog points, it seems to require modification to the structure of the unit as supplied (cutting the Factory Bonding Wires)

(3) they may require further modification if found to be troublesome 

 

 

If you do find that you have short circuits in DC, then the problem should be addressed IMO.

What nonsense to suggest that the trains will 'just coast through'! Not at very slow speeds they won't.

 

Peco points (and other brands) are designed to work straight out of the box, but this can raise some unreliability issues.

 

It is easier IMO to install them, with recommended improvements, rather than try to fix the problems at a later date. Certainly, you will get conflicting advice here!

[AndyID]

3 hours ago, rockershovel said:

 

That animation is quite instructive, although I do note that - 

 

(1) there ARE short circuits, but they can be ignored in DC (although not in DCC)

(2) like most references to live frog points, it seems to require modification to the structure of the unit as supplied (cutting the Factory Bonding Wires)

(3) they may require further modification if found to be troublesome 

 

 

 

That page fails to explain that there are two ways to energize the crossing (frog). The method shown cannot create a short-circuit (unless you drive a train into the turnout when the points are set against it.)

 

The other method (as supplied by Peco) can create a short-circuit, but only if wheel back-to-back settings are incorrect. The other problem with the "as supplied" method is it requires the point blades to make good electrical contact with the stock rails, but that tends to be unreliable.