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Heljan GWR 47xx Night Owl


Hilux5972
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So here’s my gradient test comparing the 02 with the 47xx, and just for fun, a Mainline 43xx..

 

 

The 02 is a mighty meaty puller, there’s no doubt about it.

The 47xx still takes the same load, but as it curves on my gradient, it slows to a crawl (slipping), I think it’s the length of the 47xx wheelbase on the curves that’s going against it, more so than the 02.

 

But just for fun, a nicely oiled, serviced Mainline 43xx runs away with it.. the power of a subtle traction tyre despised by so many in the UK.

 

As I said i’m Sold on the 47xx, but the BR Green one, I think I want to see in the flesh first to see what the linings really like, but for Haulage, it’s up there.

 

That was fun, don't need DCC sound with the Mainline 43xx!

 

Possibly the 47xx will ease up a bit with running, some locos seem to.

 

What I assume are the Accurscale hoppers look magnificent, just as they should be in a lengthy consist.

 

John.

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I'm afraid Harlequin is right on this one. Rob is not modelling in any real sense of the word and so using fake modelling to  promote a model that is so poor in its construction is bound to irritate.

 

Sorry but I disagree on all counts.

 

As I said in #1199, I was ambivalent about purchasing this model but when it arrived I found it was definitely Not "poor in its constuction".

It is well constructed, to a new motor/body design and a strong powerful performer.

 

It has Faults.

These faults have been well described here in 49 pages of discussion and each propective buyer has to decide for themselves if these faults are acceptable/fixable or unacceptable.

I took the plunge and discovered the only remaining "fault" in my eyes after a few minutes fumbling work was the BR lining. If I'd bought a BR black one in the same condition I would have been entirely satisfied.

 

Not saying any faults are acceptable but we all know that with modern high-detail models parts are likely to come adrift in the post and we buy knowing we may have the inconvenience of minor repairs to a new model or sending them back for replacement. It's the way things are for nearly all new models of all makes.

Mine turned out to be no better, no worse than any other recent purchase and after a few minutes work I have (unexpectedly) a really nice addition to the layout collection.

It would be good if manufacturers could design packaging that perfectly protects our models, but none have yet achieved that.

 

As for Rob's work, it's not "fake modelling", it's an interesting take on our models as far as I am concerned. He claims nothing else and he regularly offers to cut down or remove his images if members feel he is posting too many.

One thing we have nearly all of us learned in the social media/forum age is to skip though mountains of stuff that annoys or doesn't interest us.

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I hope you gave it a good gradual running-in session to 'ease up' before putting it under that load !!

The rolling resistance of the 15 Accurascale hoppers is 3g on a level, it increases to 6g on the curve, but on that gradient it increases to 21g and max out at 31g on the curve at the top of my gradient.

 

The gradient is impressive.. 6 inches in 8 ft ( 1” in 16” - a flaw in my design 5 years ago based on my maths 20 years ago when everything had traction tyres), the track is “roughed to give extra adhesion, which is about 1 extra coach.

 

I put some scales on test today to do my dynamometer readings, to give the idea.

The scales are on a flat wagon (with double sided tape to ensure it doesn’t move), the wagon isn’t coupled to the HUOs, instead it’s the hook from the scales.

It’s rough and ready but you can see the exponential rise in resistance as it climbs.

https://youtu.be/kgAnVlSfO8c

post-20773-0-69572600-1534003819_thumb.jpeg

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Rob, You are not helping.

 

You are muddying the waters by taking third party photos of the model (possibly copyright) and processing them onto third party photos and paintings of scenes (also possibly copyright) as if it were the real loco.

 

This latest background is not just "based on" Malcolm Root's painting, it IS Mr. Root's painting with the identifying signature cut off.

 

These images have very little to do with the subject of this thread, the Heljan model, and if we want to see what the prototypes looked like it's easy to find photos of them in real locations on the Internet and in books.

 

Well, it must have been in breach of something, because part of the image was a modified copy of the photo in Malcom's book, albeit much changed in perspective, and with a different engine, the engine being a photo of my model which I took. I painted over parts of a black BR 4706, and added lining manually.

 

I didn't cut any signature out. I acknowledged that the pic was based on Malcom's painting.

 

If a modified picture of a 47XX model isn't related to this thread, then sobeit.   I find photos of prototypes or paintings of such to be relevant to a model, but clearly you and others don't.

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Ah well...I give up ,after my two posts 1182 and 1189, and of course,it’s only my humble opinion/choice,I realise now that modellers are still willing to pay good for bad no matter what.

It seems from the latest posts that all manufacturers are producing faulty models in one form or another,and they say......that is what we should expect.

I think that Heljan in particular will be the flag bearer for this accolade for a while yet as I personally have not found this in other manufactures , models.

I think it’s a real shame it has come to this .

I felt really compelled on this thread to join in , and I have, but I’m off now and thanks for all the fish.

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I'm afraid Harlequin is right on this one. Rob is not modelling in any real sense of the word and so using fake modelling to  promote a model that is so poor in its construction is bound to irritate.

...

 

So photographing a model and creating an image using Paintshop is 'fake modelling' ? I suppose you can see it that way. 

 

We better ban fake skies then.  I do make it clear that my images are edited.

 

I had better go fishing too. :)

 

There are three 47XXs and a Stirling Single (hopefully) on their way to me, I'll post pics of the models if they are of interest. 

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I do like your pictures Rob, keep them coming.

 

There is a sense of frustration where the model fails to meet your pictures. That sort of thing is palpable to the modeller. Your pictures are fine; it's just the failed reality.

 

After all, you can't draw a parallel scenario betwixt your pictures and the Big Lizzies: very little wrong with the Hornby model, against the sorry situation regarding Heljan.

 

Cheers,

 

Ian.

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Thanks for posting that.

 

It has come to a point where RMweb hosts people who vent at any RTR fault at all, and indeed appear to me to take pleasure in finding fault with anything.

 

I have read all pages of this thread from announcement of the lovely 47XX and certain members listed with apparent zeal every little fault in what is, when delivered undamaged and/or fixed, a stunning model.

 

The same mentality is often applied to such as the Stirling Single and Hornby and Bachmann, but is very evident here.   Mind you, RMweb is a broad church is it not?.

It certainly is Rob....good luck and have fun with your 47xxs.
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Ah well...I give up ,after my two posts 1182 and 1189, and of course,it’s only my humble opinion/choice,I realise now that modellers are still willing to pay good for bad no matter what...

Every modeller here has opinions and makes choices. Some will differ from yours. Stand by your opinions and choices and express them, but don't necessarily expect uniformity and agreement from anyone else!

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As I've probably said before, I appreciate Rob's pictures and enjoy seeing them.

 

Others may not, in which case skip and move to the next post. I do that anyway with much of the material on here that doesn't interest me, otherwise I'd be on here 24/7 and never get any modelling done!

 

We're all entitled to our opinions about models, and have different weightings of importance about aspects of them. I'd love everything I buy to be perfect, but if it isn't and I can fix it easily enough I'll do so, even if I shouldn't have to. Rightly or wrongly I'd consider myself a modeller, although my skills are a lot less than some on here, and I'd sooner jump in and have a go than spend time packaging something up and walking to the Post Office.

 

Coming back to Rob's pictures, and this point applies to any photos in the digital age. He makes clear they are manipulations, and often says what those manipulations are. So he isn't passing them off as something they're not - would this could be said of everything I see on Flickr! I look upon them as a work of art, albeit a very 21st century one, usually presenting a very idealised view of the railway in the mid 20th century. As a youngster in Lancashire in the last days of steam, all I really remember is grot and dirt, everything you touched on the railway left your hand black, and I'm sure not modelling that!

 

John.

Edited by John Tomlinson
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As I've probably said before, I appreciate Rob's pictures and enjoy seeing them.

 

Others may not, in which case skip and move to the next post. I do that anyway with much of the material on here that doesn't interest me, otherwise I'd be on here 24/7 and never get any modelling done!

 

We're all entitled to our opinions about models, and have different weightings of importance about aspects of them. I'd love everything I buy to be perfect, but if it isn't and I can fix it easily enough I'll do so, even if I shouldn't have to. Rightly or wrongly I'd consider myself a modeller, although my skills are a lot less than some on here, and I'd sooner jump in and have a go than spend time packaging something up and walking to the Post Office.

 

Coming back to Rob's pictures, and this point applies to any photos in the digital age. He makes clear they are manipulations, and often says what those manipulations are. So he isn't passing them off as something they're not - would this could be said of everything I see on Flickr! I look upon them as a work of art, albeit a very 21st century one, usually presenting a very idealised view of the railway in the mid 20th century. As a youngster in Lancashire in the last days of steam, all I really remember is grot and dirt, everything you touched on the railway left your hand black, and I'm sure not modelling that!

 

John.

 

With reference to Rob's photos; last time there was some objections raised to his clogging threads with his 'photo manipulations', he agreed to open a thread specifically for that purpose; if he did so, he has sadly lapsed again.

 

If, as he has contended, his images can stand on their own merits, a dedicated thread is the ideal solution. Those interested in his output can 'Follow' the thread; those who are not can 'Ignore' the thread; (as I do).

 

As things stand, I cannot get away from the impression that Rob is taking every possible opportunity, in every slightly relevant thread, to announce to the membership "Look what I did"!

 

This would be fine if the images were of models that he had built / enhanced, but they are not. This is a railway modelling forum, not one for photo manipulation.

 

.... and yes, I am aware of Rob's disabilities.

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

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These images have very little to do with the subject of this thread, the Heljan model, and if we want to see what the prototypes looked like it's easy to find photos of them in real locations on the Internet and in books.

 

That's one reason the Ignore function is so useful. :) A long while back, I got fed up with product threads being spammed with "look, if I photoshop this picture of the loco, it's a really nice model" pics, totally irrelevant to the actual models themselves and the faults people are trying to bring attention to.

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With reference to Rob's photos; last time there was some objections raised to his clogging threads with his 'photo manipulations', he agreed to open a thread specifically for that purpose; if he did so, he has sadly lapsed again.

 

If, as he has contended, his images can stand on their own merits, a dedicated thread is the ideal solution. Those interested in his output can 'Follow' the thread; those who are not can 'Ignore' the thread; (as I do).

 

As things stand, I cannot get away from the impression that Rob is taking every possible opportunity, in every slightly relevant thread, to announce to the membership "Look what I did"!

 

This would be fine if the images were of models that he had built / enhanced, but they are not. This is a railway modelling forum, not one for photo manipulation.

 

.... and yes, I am aware of Rob's disabilities.

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

 

Until such time as the Mods agree with you,   please scroll on.

Edited by Forester
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This is a tricky one for me. I generally get much more irritated by people trying to dictate what shouldn’t be posted than I do by those who post what may be considered irrelevant material. A particular bugbear of mine is people who regularly opine that a particular thread should be locked, usually for no other reason than that they disagree with many of the points being made.

 

This has got me in trouble with the moderators in the past but I am difficult to offend and I think the most interesting discussions are those where people hold different views and are prepared to defend them, rather than those where there is an easy consensus and everybody agrees with everybody else!

 

But I digress, I think Rob has good photo editing skills and clearly enjoys what he does. Is it always relevant to the thread? Probably not. Do some people enjoy seeing them? Yes. Does it do any harm? Absolutely not.

 

If you don’t want to look at Rob’s work that is absolutely fine but I don’t see the point in trying to make a big issue of it.

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As things stand, I cannot get away from the impression that Rob is taking every possible opportunity, in every slightly relevant thread, to announce to the membership "Look what I did"!

 

 

.... and yes, I am aware of Rob's disabilities.

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

 

Speak for yourself Mr. Isherwood!

 

That's quite possibly the most discriminatory and patronising post I've yet read on RMWeb.......

 

Precisely WHAT has Rob's disability got to do with this? Is tolerance of his photomontages some kind of indulgence afforded to him because of his condition......but now he disagrees with the rest of us it's time to turn on him?

 

Even by the typical standards of RMWeb product threads you have managed to take this discussion to a new low. Shame on you sir!

 

You seem to be happy to assume the mantle of self-appointed moderator of this thread ("This is a railway modelling forum, not one for photo manipulation.") so doubtless we can look forward to more of your admonishments in future. Alternatively you could 'wind your neck in' and let Andy York decide?

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I believe that the Mods were involved in asking Rob to open his own thread.

 

Not much came of that, it seems!

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

 

Give it a rest you are becoming boring keep prolonging arguments.

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Speak for yourself Mr. Isherwood!

 

That's quite possibly the most discriminatory and patronising post I've yet read on RMWeb.......

 

Precisely WHAT has Rob's disability got to do with this? Is tolerance of his photomontages some kind of indulgence afforded to him because of his condition......but now he disagrees with the rest of us it's time to turn on him?

 

Even by the typical standards of RMWeb product threads you have managed to take this discussion to a new low. Shame on you sir!

 

You seem to be happy to assume the mantle of self-appointed moderator of this thread ("This is a railway modelling forum, not one for photo manipulation.") so doubtless we can look forward to more of your admonishments in future. Alternatively you could 'wind your neck in' and let Andy York decide?

 

A final post on the subject - firstly, I did not raise the issue; I merely supported other members concerns.

 

The facts :-

 

Rob caused a great deal of disquiet some time back by doing what he is now doing again - bombarding the group with irrelevant images.

 

At that time Rob agreed - in a post here - to stop doing this; to open a thread of his own for his manipulated images; and to confine them to that thread.

 

It is plainly evident to all that Rob has gone back on that undertaking.

 

So who exactly is at fault here?

 

I have my list settings arranged so that I IGNORE all of Rob's posts, and that suits me fine.

 

I only became involved because, by failing to keep to his agreement, Rob is once again causing disquiet within the group.

 

Now how can that be discriminatory?

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

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If I may be permitted to add a hopefully pertinent view....

 

If people don't like the Heljan, or it's faulted, Heljan will soon get the picture. Low sales, against a much-vaunted & highly expected model. Me included, I should add. The pictures or photographs add (or distract) not one jot. Fine if you're buying pictures or photographs, but are you?

 

Robs pictures won't sway me, but negative reports of the model will seriously influence me. If Heljan had indeed turned out a 100% cracker, Robs pictures would be irrelevant in this instance, against an overwhelming positive feeling. It's a complaint to Heljan that's required, not a bloke who's good at photo manipulation.

 

There are two models I've left out in the last 18 months. First was the Dean Goods, the second being the 47xx. I could still buy either, or both. But, my wallet has stayed well shut due to the negative press on both models. Lashing out at the wrong target is a waste of energy, in this instance.

 

Personally, what disquiet? A good rendition of a picture, or a model that's broken? Recrimination for sure, but where?

 

Cheers,

 

Ian.

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Picked mine up yesterday. All parts attached, but the shop did check and mine was the only one of three ordered that was ok, the others were returned. Fitted it with a Lenz silver, plonked it on track and away it goes, backwards. Not an issue, will change that when I alter settings on the Sprog. A few jobs to do about the house then will see what it will haul.

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If I may be permitted to add a hopefully pertinent view....

 

If people don't like the Heljan, or it's faulted, Heljan will soon get the picture. Low sales, against a much-vaunted & highly expected model. Me included, I should add. The pictures or photographs add (or distract) not one jot. Fine if you're buying pictures or photographs, but are you?

 

Robs pictures won't sway me, but negative reports of the model will seriously influence me. If Heljan had indeed turned out a 100% cracker, Robs pictures would be irrelevant in this instance, against an overwhelming positive feeling. It's a complaint to Heljan that's required, not a bloke who's good at photo manipulation.

 

There are two models I've left out in the last 18 months. First was the Dean Goods, the second being the 47xx. I could still buy either, or both. But, my wallet has stayed well shut due to the negative press on both models. Lashing out at the wrong target is a waste of energy, in this instance.

 

Personally, what disquiet? A good rendition of a picture, or a model that's broken? Recrimination for sure, but where?

 

Cheers,

 

Ian.

 

In practice, all customers will not have the same solidarity to refuse to buy or cancel pre orders based on negative reviews. Even if they did, the shops in question will be stuck with stock. They can send back faulty ones but perfectly good ones would sit on the shelves. Fortunately for them, that won't happen and there will be plenty of sales from people visiting and checking before they buy (as well as online protection to return any item that is faulty).

 

You may also be asking that all customers have the same solidarity to send back all models with a major issue (we are not talking about a part popping off, but big issues like deformed plates), and in turn you are asking that all shops send them back accordingly.

In practice it will be different with some people and some shops effecting repairs (don't forget they have some leeway as service agents).

 

Shops loose sales when they send a model back as - these days - there won't be any replacements from the manufacturer. Selling the item slightly cheaper as a second is still more profitable than a return.

 

That said, laws of probability will state that if they are 10 times more faulty models with a particular loco than average, there will still be a higher return, now this may be 6% instead 0.6% but it still measures itself in the final margin made on the model. So Heljan will be aware some where, that something is wrong, and the action required to correct can be decided based on it. The Claytons died whole sale and had to be replaced period like the L&B tanks, this model is not as bad as those so will be adjusted in future runs by other means.

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If I may be permitted to add a hopefully pertinent view....

 

If people don't like the Heljan, or it's faulted, Heljan will soon get the picture. Low sales, against a much-vaunted & highly expected model. Me included, I should add. The pictures or photographs add (or distract) not one jot. Fine if you're buying pictures or photographs, but are you?

 

Robs pictures won't sway me, but negative reports of the model will seriously influence me. If Heljan had indeed turned out a 100% cracker, Robs pictures would be irrelevant in this instance, against an overwhelming positive feeling. It's a complaint to Heljan that's required, not a bloke who's good at photo manipulation.

 

There are two models I've left out in the last 18 months. First was the Dean Goods, the second being the 47xx. I could still buy either, or both. But, my wallet has stayed well shut due to the negative press on both models. Lashing out at the wrong target is a waste of energy, in this instance.

 

Personally, what disquiet? A good rendition of a picture, or a model that's broken? Recrimination for sure, but where?

 

Cheers,

 

Ian.

 

For geographical reasons the Heljan 47XX does not interest me but if I were modelling a different area it might and it would then boil down to doing to it what my skills/ability allow although the BR lined green livery would, I'm fairly sure be well beyond those skills and is the one I would like.   As Ian has said above his wallet has remained shut and mine probably would too, I'd sooner spend time and money looking for a Cotswold kit which in my opinion captured the look of these engines far better than the Heljan model does.

 

But at the end of the day, and trusting that we are getting objective reports from other modellers (and there are good ones among the less approving ones) I would probably steer clear - but that is me and in the end for everyone it is down to personal choice and what they do or don't want to spend their money on.  And there are of course plenty of photos of the real thing on the 'net and in books to help those who want to check, correct, or add details and it is against them, and my own photos and memories that I would make my judgement.

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I tend to agree Mike, I would like one just for nostalgic reasons, and happy memories but it does not fit in my 'layout area'. I'd probably be tempted if I come across a cheap non-runner/ motor-less example for the display case. :sungum:

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