Heljan GWR 47xx Night Owl

[tomparryharry]

It looks about right to me Larry. I'll continue to maintain that Chrome green is more 'blue' in its makeup. Chrome powder is a principal ingredient in making Western mid-chrome green. My old foundry mixed thousands of tons of the stuff. Of course, time will diminish the memory, and it will vary from one picture to another. but you can't disguise the fact that it's a metal based paint. The blue is obtained by thinning out the paint with a thinner oil.

 

Cheers,

 

Ian.

[Silver Sidelines]

Thanks Coachman

 

If Heljans BR green is exactly the same as on their GWR model, then it is darker than all Hornby's models.

I think we need a comparison shot of Heljan GW green next to a Heljan BR green. My subjective feeling is that the two greens are significantly different - perhaps more to Malachite on the BR model as I think you are saying. To my eye the the green of the Heljan BR 47xx is not widely different to the green shade on Blue Peter's tender in the background.

 

Ray

Edited August 14, 2018 by Silver Sidelines

[coachmann]

Thanks Coachman

 

 

I think we need a comparison shot of Heljan GW green next to a Heljan BR green. My subjective feeling is that the two greens are significantly different - perhaps more to Malachite on the BR model as I think you are saying. To my eye the the green of the Heljan BR 47xx is not widely different to the green shade on Blue Peter's tender in the background.

 

Ray

Interesting. Thankfully, I won't ever see a BR lined green Heljan ha ha.

[JZ]

Going to throw in my tuppence worth now. I only have two other lined green Swindon loco's. My Hornby Grange is factory weathered, not my choice, but I won't look a gift horse in the mouth, so I have disregarded that in the photos. So here we have a Bachmann Hall at the front and the 47XX to the rear.

 

The green compares very well to my eye, but maybe the orange is a little too yellow, but then I think the Bachmann orange is too bright, although that compares well against Hornby orange. Maybe I should do some other comparisons, but then again, life's too short...............

[adb968008]

Bachmann 31-831 from around 2010https://www.hattons.co.uk/23489/Bachmann_Branchline_31_831_Class_43xx_2_6_0_4358_loco_Churchward_tender_in_BR_lined_green_with_early_emble/StockDetail.aspx So not 1980s and no rubber tyresRay

Easy enough mistake..

 

https://www.hattons.co.uk/82614/Mainline_37045_Class_43xx_2_6_0_4358_in_BR_Lined_Green/StockDetail.aspx

 

Here’s Mainline’s 4358, catalog 37-045 and it quite definitely does have traction tyres

 

 

(see my video earlier)

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/92905-Heljan-gwr-47xx-night-owl/?p=3261857

 

I guess we have to call it a draw.. Bachmann 1 : Mainline 1, but it’s still a paint job back to the 80’s looking at the Mainline one, and i’ll bet your Bachmann for my Mainline that it will out pull both Heljans 47xx and the Bachmann one, probably if they double headed together too, when I run it, I have to put it on a leash with a muzzle.

Edited August 14, 2018 by adb968008

[Silver Sidelines]

Thanks ADB

 

Whilst you were editing your Post I too was adding a video to my 43xx Post - good job I am not a betting man. I liked my old Mainline 43xx!

 

Easy enough mistake..

Cheers Ray

[JimC]

In response to something posted earlier, the late crest does not denote a loco is towards the end of its life.[snip]

Certainly not intended life... the WR built a complete new set of 47xx boilers in 1955/7, and introduced a new superheater design in 1957, so it doesn't seem too risky an assumption that there was reckoned to be a lot of use left in them.

[The Stationmaster]

Certainly not intended life... the WR built a complete new set of 47xx boilers in 1955/7, and introduced a new superheater design in 1957, so it doesn't seem too risky an assumption that there was reckoned to be a lot of use left in them.

 

Swindon doing anything to stave off the march of the BR Standards and their incursions into its territory .  They were probably afraid they have to keep their 'Britannias' if the 47XX were ditched  

 

(tongue now removed from cheek)

[leavesontheline]

Well I took the plunge and ordered one (4705), not without some trepidation I must admit, after reading the feedback on here on all variants released so far.

 

I have to say I am very pleased with it so far. Only one slightly loose part in the form of a tender handrail that needs a bit more glue on the bottom bracket. No wavy frames or ski-jump front running plate.

 

The colour of the lining and the BR green, and also the prominence of the rivet detail, is somewhat subjective and can look very different in different lighting. Colour-wise I also think this is very close to recent Bachmann releases with both the BR green and the yellowy/orange pale lining being quite 'in your face' in direct sunshine daylight conditions (or similar bright lighting) but in normal house-hold lighting and/or normal natural UK daylight (i.e. cloud!) the colours are much less garish and more importantly, at normal viewing distances running around the layout I think this effect will be toned down further still. Same with the rivet detail.

 

No model manufacturers seem to get all colours 100% right, and what is 'right' anyway? (as has already been the subject of numerous topics on RMweb!). I am pleased to say that I am too young to remember such liveries and colours in the flesh but then again could I tell you from memory what exact colour blue or sectorisation grey was used in the 80's and 90's when I grew up? No I couldn't! I'd just look it up in a book or the internet and accept that both of these media also have their own impact on the presentation of colours! Maybe I'm easy to please but I really like the look of it! 

 

I will be keeping mine in pristine condition for now but the only change I will make is to paint over the silver axles in the centre of the driving wheels.

 

Otherwise, top marks to Heljan for a very weighty, smooth running and aesthetically pleasing model - certainly on a par with the best recent offerings from Hornby and Bachmann, if a little more pricey (certainly compared to Hornby). I am actually tempted by one of the older GW livery variants now, if I can find one at the right price!

[Silver Sidelines]

At the risk of boring people, some more comparisons!

I know cameras and lighting are hugely significant but comparing models under similar conditions should provide some indicators.  I am beginning to quite like 4705!

 

I must be older than 'leaves on the line' because I used to collect numbers (in short pants) from green steam engines. But what colour were they?


Conyngham Hall, 4705, King George 1 plus Blue Peter


Evening Star, 4705, Overton Grange


Tenders 4705 (L), Evening Star ®
 

I was reading a medical article recently that stated that it was physically impossible to directly remember anything from say your childhood.  Memories that you have are thoughts and ideas that have been repackaged more recently, say with the aid of photographs, letters discussions with relatives, so may not be truly reliable.  So what shade of green did you say?

 

Ray

Edited August 14, 2018 by Silver Sidelines

[Caddy]

13th August and my 47xx has arrived from Mr Hatton, thank you.  It came in one piece and runs perfectly, well done Heljan.  I am not so sure about the orange lining.  I might experiment.

 

Anyway some real pictures and a video.

 

Ray

 

 

The Night Owl has landed

 

 

Lovely photos and video and obviously beautifully laid track, thank you. I am now sorely tempted!

[westonman]

Has anyone fitted etched number plates to the 47xx and if so is it easy to remove the standard fitted ones.

[ikks]

Lovely photos and video and obviously beautifully laid track, thank you. I am now sorely tempted!

One of the things that I have always disliked about model passenger trains is wobbly coaches...........yours have none they look brilliant, rock steady, whats the secret?? is it the track?

 

Mike

[Silver Sidelines]

Hello Mike

 

Glad you like it.

 

.. wobbly coaches...........yours have none they look brilliant, rock steady, whats the secret?? is it the track?

 

 

There is a Blog here which describes  how the layout was built and what I have done to various items of rolling stock: http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/blog/880-sixties-snapshots-00-scale/

 

The track is Peco Streamline, pinned at say 100mm intervals direclty to the MDF 'baseboard'.  The visible sections are ballasted with poppy seeds held in place by wallpaper paste.  I think the ballasting holds the track more rigid and perhaps improves the running qualities.  I chose wallpaper paste because I thought that it would be readily removable should I wish to change the layout.

 

The rolling stock is standard, in this case Bachmann Mk1s.  I do have a 'truck tuner' to clean out dirty axle boxes.  I also change out wheel sets if I have a 'dud' with a wobble.  The recent offerings from both Bachmann and Hornby have all been pretty good. 

 

My rakes of Bachmann Mk1s are close coupled with Hornby R8220 couplers (with a little bit of plastic removed).  Other coaches, Hornby and Bachmann Portholes / new Thompsons are close coupled with Roco 40270 couplers.  Both the R8220 and the 402070 lock the coaches together and I think improving the running qualities.

 

Perhaps some pointers?

 

Cheers Ray

[Methuselah]

For those who want to run one but haven't got an excuse, this one was captured by Michael Mensing at Lapworth on Sunday 8th November 1961 with a headlamp in the Class B position. 

http://www.warwickshirerailways.com/gwr/gwrl2500.htm

I wonder if it was in the context of Local Passenger train or Breakdown Train not going to clear the line?

 

I remember this wonderful spot so well, as Lapworth was where the northwards quadrupled section began. For any railway fan, especially GWR steam, this was Nirvana. My family had previously lived in the area, so I grew-up running around hereabouts. I clearly remember the 4700's at this location - although not usually - if ever, as clean as this one in the photo, and their colour, let alone any lining was not usually discernible in my time. All locos seemed to be a uniform grey-brown...!

 

There was a northwards loop on the west side at Lapworth, and more often than not, the 4700's would appear there, simmering near the rear of the signal cabin, presumably whilst other traffic cleared ahead. I suppose they must have rested similarly in the southbound loop or Relief line, but I have no specific recollection of that. On a summers day, with the signalman's windows open, the sound of the birds singing was broken only by the signalmans bells busily ringing - and the occasional train of course. Lapworth itself was an idyllic bubble of rural mainline GWR, even after the ravages of the BR cuts. The smell of pitch melting in the summer sun and the waft of Welsh steam coal was taken for granted.

 

It was only after the blatantly idiotic decision to close Snow Hill was taken, that Lapworth's demise finally came about, and almost all of the quadroupling was lifted and most of the stations eviscerated - and as we now know, the need to re-establish BSH soon became apparent. Today, Lapworth is a bare platform with a little bus shelter - unrecognisable, and the wide, neatly-trimmed embankments are a forest of trees and undergrowth and the neatly-tended gardens a mere memory. Thus, until their demise, the 4700's (I never remember them being referred to as 'Night Owls' btw.) were regularly seen through and occasionally resting at Lapworth. For some enterprising soul, this location would make a wonderful prototype to model. Had I not become infatuated with another, similarly interesting location, I would have liked to have had a bash at modelling Lapworth myself, but it'd need quite a length - to do it real justice it needs about 50' at 4mm scale.

 

My enduring recollection however, was of the splendid, awe-inspiring Castles and Kings roaring through Lapworth at full-tilt in both directions, and despite also remembering seeing the lines of dead-engines being towed-away for scrapping, their connecting-rods lashed to the sides, I prefer to recall the last days of steam - and only wish I'd have seen it all in it's full splendour pre-war.

 

Sadly - I didn't own a camera as a youth - but for me, when I think of 4700's - Lapworth is where I always see them in my minds-eye.

[bike2steam]

Continuing the above, the early/mid 1960's were good times on the GW Brum main-line, because of ongoing electrification on the WCML a lot of traffic was transferred.  Many a visit to Oxley was enriched by the sight of an Old Oak 47 on shed. Once the electrification was complete the GW line became a shadow of it's former self. Thanks to 'Methuselah' for that nostalgic moment.

[bike2steam]

At the risk of boring people, some more comparisons!

Reminds me of something the late Harry Frith senior ( one time manager of Eastleigh works erecting shop) once said to me, tongue in cheek. 'The shade of green depends on the mood of the labourer that has to mix it!! ' 

[JZ]

Has anyone fitted etched number plates to the 47xx and if so is it easy to remove the standard fitted ones.

I have, as have a few others. I just removed the raised ridge around the number and put plates on top. The Heljan ones are slightly small, but the gap doesn't show particularly. FWIW, my numberplates were from 247 Developments.

[Dunsignalling]

Reminds me of something the late Harry Frith senior ( one time manager of Eastleigh works erecting shop) once said to me, tongue in cheek. 'The shade of green depends on the mood of the labourer that has to mix it!! ' 

And reminds me of an interesting comment made at my RAF medical, many years ago, when questioned about smoking, that moderate-to-heavy smoking (which wasn't uncommon in steam days) could make ones colour perception unstable and subject to change over timescales as short as a couple of weeks.

 

Just one of the reasons I doubt that any shade can be claimed to be right, wrong or even consistent on anything where the paint had been mixed on-site.

 

There is ample anecdotal evidence that accurate weighing-out of ingredients was a less-than-universal practice among those doing the mixing. When dealing with memorised proportions, e.g. "three scoops of that, one of this and two-and-a-bit of the other", the size of the bit is likely to wander. If, also, one pigment happened to be running low, it is easy to envisage a foreman saying, "go a bit easy on that, lad, we don't get any more until next week". Result: the loco painted today won't be exactly the same colour as its classmate, painted a month ago.

 

IMHO, the only certain outcome is uncertainty; all the more so if the paint didn't always get mixed by the same man.   

 

John

[Tim Hall]

And reminds me of an interesting comment made at my RAF medical, many years ago, when questioned about smoking, that moderate-to-heavy smoking (which wasn't uncommon in steam days) could make ones colour perception unstable and subject to change over timescales as short as a couple of weeks.

 

Just one of the reasons I doubt that any shade can be claimed to be right, wrong or even consistent on anything where the paint had been mixed on-site.

 

There is ample anecdotal evidence that accurate weighing-out of ingredients was a less-than-universal practice among those doing the mixing. When dealing with memorised proportions, e.g. "three scoops of that, one of this and two-and-a-bit of the other", the size of the bit is likely to wander. If, also, one pigment happened to be running low, it is easy to envisage a foreman saying, "go a bit easy on that, lad, we don't get any more until next week". Result: the loco painted today won't be exactly the same colour as its classmate, painted a month ago.

 

IMHO, the only certain outcome is uncertainty; all the more so if the paint didn't always get mixed by the same man.   

 

John

 

I believe it is correct that smoking can alter one's ability to discriminate between similar colours. I seem to remember this being fairly common knowledge during my time colour matching for the automotive industry in the mid-late 90s. It was also widely held that young females had better colour discrimination powers than men, on average. Therefore. it was entirely predictable that the company I worked for used middle aged male smokers for this jobs, with predictable results......Candidates were screened using the Ishihara (?) test, and those results were often ignored by management  but that's another story.

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

I believe it is correct that smoking can alter one's ability to discriminate between similar colours. I seem to remember this being fairly common knowledge during my time colour matching for the automotive industry in the mid-late 90s. It was also widely held that young females had better colour discrimination powers than men, on average...

To add to which it should never be forgotten that colour is solely an artefact of our brain. It has no absolute physical existence, which was pointedly brought home to me in the sixties when I had to learn that for physics O level examination passing purposes the Sodium 'D' lines were to be described as 'yellow', even though to me they are clearly orange. (Took me years to get to the bottom of that, and finally the knowledge that I am a divergent trichromat.)  This condition is relatively common in males, along with the better known trouble of red/green discrimination.

 

As such any psycho-active substance has the potential to alter colour perception, see 'psychedelia'. Ingest 'substances' including the legal narcotics and prescription drugs, and your perception may change (beer goggles anyone?). No guarantee, some are affected, others will not be, and the effect may not be consistent subject to subject. Many of the solvents once common to commercial degreasing and spray painting operations are psycho-active, just adding to the stew in the days past when minimising exposure was not taken too seriously... 

 

So it doesn't do to get too categorical about the accuracy of colour rendition as it's personal to your brain. For example, I have little trouble with Hornby's Brunswick green, as I see all colours a little 'warmer' (less blue) than the male population average.

 

As for young women. I once had the joyful project of looking for tetrachromats. Very, very useful people for some applications as they see into the ultraviolet. Typically this rare capability is found in young women, very rare in males. They see more. Maybe that nice girl you like the look of but she won't give you the time of day can see something she doesn't like...

[Ian Hargrave]

Which is fine but to which of several versions of Hornby BR green do you refer ? For example the latest versions of the Castle are significantly 'livelier' than earlier versions and the King still sports the 'pale and interesting ' livery'. The same observations apply to the Bulleid light pacifics,current examples being a shade different from 34013....,and so it goes...

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

Which is fine but to which of several versions of Hornby BR green do you refer ? For example the latest versions of the Castle are significantly 'livelier' than earlier versions and the King still sports the 'pale and interesting ' livery'. The same observations apply to the Bulleid light pacifics,...

None of the above, what with being an ECML type. Hornby's (originally GE section allocated) Britannias, a couple of which eventually had the privilege of regular turns on the ECML are the little trouble. Their 2004/5 A3 and A4 productions, and circa 2010/11 B17s all carry decent renditions of Brunswick green for my perception, but the 2006 Brit is sufficiently 'pale and interesting' such that it has to carry an overlay of filth to make it acceptable.

[bike2steam]

The same observations apply to the Bulleid light pacifics,current examples being a shade different from 34013....,and so it goes...

 

A good excuse, the summer comes sooner to the south coast, fading caused by strong sunlight affects the shade of green. The reason why the SWD regularly reversed rakes of stock round the Branksome triangle during summer time in steam days. Sorry I digress(tic)

[tomparryharry]

A good excuse, the summer comes sooner to the south coast, fading caused by strong sunlight affects the shade of green. The reason why the SWD regularly reversed rakes of stock round the Branksome triangle during summer time in steam days. Sorry I digress(tic)

 

Green? Green? Paint 'em black, I say!

 

Harumph, harrumph!

 

O. Keedokey.