Heljan GWR 47xx Night Owl

[88C]

A short update.

Following suggestions I have dismantled the loco and have been able to test the motor and I am pleased to say that it does work. My next job will be to try to bypass the chip, I do know that red and black wires go to the motor.

 

I have noticed that the Heljan advert in the latest Modeller, which surprisingly arrived today, gives a UK email contact as Gaugemaster.

 

 I will let you know how I get on.

 

Brian

[John Tomlinson]

17 hours ago, 88C said:

A short update.

Following suggestions I have dismantled the loco and have been able to test the motor and I am pleased to say that it does work. My next job will be to try to bypass the chip, I do know that red and black wires go to the motor.

 

I have noticed that the Heljan advert in the latest Modeller, which surprisingly arrived today, gives a UK email contact as Gaugemaster.

 

 I will let you know how I get on.

 

Brian

Pleased to read that the fault is not the motor per se.

 

Do keep us informed of your investigation, as the more gen. the better.

 

Feedback on Gaugemaster's handling of Heljan Spares has not been very positive to date. It would be very useful if it were possible to buy replacement motors with the correct end fittings.

 

John.

[88C]

I have spent some time tracing the wiring circuits with interesting results.

Clearly the red and black wires go to the motor so the other pairs must be the pickups but the colours do not really make sense, I will check yet again before I commit myself to anything. I have also noted the purpose of the pins.

 

As it stands I think I have the following options.

 

1  Try again to contact Heljan and get a replacement dummy plug. Probably a waste of time.

 

2  Solder jumper wires onto the existing PCB. Rather tricky due to closeness of wires.

 

3  Cut the wires and rejoin to eliminate the PCB altogether. The wires are very fine.

 

Testing all of the wiring does suggest that the fault was a dodgy dummy plug.

 

I'll keep you posted, in the mean time I will do more checking and thinking but I am determined now to get the thing working.

 

Brian

 

 

[88C]

Further testing suggests that I have labelled the loco and tender pickups the wrong way round, it doesn't really matter as they are linked on the PCB.

 

Experimenting by linking parts of PCB with jumper wires has not proved successful so far, the electric bits and pieces presumably having an effect. If my final plea to Heljan doesn't bear fruit I will be cutting wires, I can't make things worse.

 

Brian

[88C]

I am very pleased to say that I now have a working 47xx.

 

I managed to contact Ben Jones and although he could only direct me back to Gaugemaster he did mention that he regularly mixes and matches PCBs from different manufacturers. So taking this on board I thought that I may as well try the Dapol dummy plug again and it worked.

 

Needless to say, I cannot explain why. Maybe I hadn't put it in correctly before, there was a loose contact somewhere who knows but it works now. Thanks to all of you who made suggestions, they certainly helped.

 

 

Brian

[liathach]

I finally got hold of a new 47xx this afternoon in the post.  Like many others, the body did not like the journey.  The pony wheel had come apart, RHS lower slide bar was out and pipework at front of cab also out loose in box.  There is another piece of plastic I am to find a home for! 

 

Given how fine the wheels are, and given the limited play with the draw-bar, I was thinking the loco would derail easily.  So far, no issues in that regard.

 

Running-wise on DCC, I was thinking it might be comparable to a number of Heljan type twos I have.  The type twos all are excellent runners.  I've tried a few decoders.  The engine, as supplied, is wired for tender-first running as "Forward".   There seems to be a tight spot in the revolution of the drive wheels at low speed.  At low speed, it has stalled a couple of times.  I will keep an eye on that.  I'm hoping more testing or running in will remedy the slow-speed end, as once this loco gets in it's stride, it's smoothness on the road is probably better than any other loco I've run in OO. 

 

 

 

[Ribird]

Bit the bullet and bought myself a Night Owl. Body wise, everything is good besides two loose pieces. Little dip in the footplate. Weight is really nice. Paint finish is nice as well, still dull (anything is better than Hornby's colours). Running wise, super noisy. Motor whines above anything higher than a fast crawl. Sorry if this issue has been discussed, but there is 57 pages to read through.

 

Any ideas where these pipes go? I'm guessing under the cab. 

 

Secondly, any good fix for the motor whine? Or return it and hope for the best?

 

If I keep her, what I plan on doing; painting wheels and axle centers, paint some silver on the motion to cover those shiny bits, move the route marker to above cab plate, cut down exsisting cab plate and replace with Fox number plate, and double check if Night Owls were supposed to get G*crest*W or GWR. This all depends if I plan on doing a green repaint. 

 

[John Tomlinson]

On 13/10/2020 at 15:37, 88C said:

I am very pleased to say that I now have a working 47xx.

 

I managed to contact Ben Jones and although he could only direct me back to Gaugemaster he did mention that he regularly mixes and matches PCBs from different manufacturers. So taking this on board I thought that I may as well try the Dapol dummy plug again and it worked.

 

Needless to say, I cannot explain why. Maybe I hadn't put it in correctly before, there was a loose contact somewhere who knows but it works now. Thanks to all of you who made suggestions, they certainly helped.

 

 

Brian

I bought one of these off Ebay a couple of weeks ago, ref 4785, no.4709, so the new build in green. I don't think it had run before, however...

 

...the running plate was fractured at the front, just behind where the curve down to the buffers starts. I dismantled the whole thing and managed to glue the fracture with Butanone. Very little glue had been used by the factory on mine, so various things fell off including the slide bars and motion bracket. These are not easy to get back together, but I think I've managed it.

 

Anyhow to the point of the post. On test with the loco upside down in the cradle nothing happened. Then I sensed a burning smell. Thankfully not the motor, but the chip exactly as per 88C above, just the same bits gone brown! It really does stink!!

 

So you were not the only one. Now off to find a 21pin blanking plug as I don't do DCC.

 

A further thought, was it really necessary to make the tender so hard to dismantle, with all the screws hidden under the water filler cap and storage boxes at the front?

 

John.

Edited July 15, 2021 by John Tomlinson

[88C]

I think my blanking chip came fro DCC Supplies, which I possibly mentioned earlier. Whether this is relevant or not I can’t say but I also lined the tender cavity with insulation tape. Fortunately the body work on mine was fine and hopefully you will be able to get yours sorted.

 

Brian

[John Tomlinson]

2 hours ago, 88C said:

I think my blanking chip came fro DCC Supplies, which I possibly mentioned earlier. Whether this is relevant or not I can’t say but I also lined the tender cavity with insulation tape. Fortunately the body work on mine was fine and hopefully you will be able to get yours sorted.

 

Brian

Thanks for this.

 

Interesting about the insulation tape. The thought did occur to me that the burnt bits of the chip might have shorted on some part of the tender inside, as I'd managed to push the PCB off its mounting whilst trying to work out how to get into the tender. The tape sounds like a good idea.

 

John.

[rembrow]

4 hours ago, John Tomlinson said:

I bought one of these off Ebay a couple of weeks ago, ref 4785, no.4709, so the new build in green. I don't think it had run before, however...

 

...the running plate was fractured at the front, just behind where the curve down to the buffers starts. I dismantled the whole thing and managed to glue the fracture with Butanone. Very little glue had been used by the factory on mine, so various things fell off including the slide bars and motion bracket. These are not easy to get back together, but I think I've managed it.

 

Anyhow to the point of the post. On test with the loco upside down in the cradle nothing happened. Then I sensed a burning smell. Thankfully not the motor, but the chip exactly as per 88C above, just the same bits gone brown! It really does stink!!

 

So you were not the only one. Now off to find a 21pin blanking plug as I don't do DCC.

 

A further thought, was it really necessary to make the tender so hard to dismantle, with all the screws hidden under the water filler cap and storage boxes at the front?

 

John.

I've got a pack of Bachmann 21 pin blanking plates, as they only sell them in multiples, so I've got plenty to spare. If you want one you can pm me.

[John Tomlinson]

2 hours ago, rembrow said:

I've got a pack of Bachmann 21 pin blanking plates, as they only sell them in multiples, so I've got plenty to spare. If you want one you can pm me.

Thanks, but I've found one off another purchase.

 

John.

[John Tomlinson]

I thought people might be amused by this photo of the bits of my 47xx receiving attention.

 

John.

 

Edited March 31, 2023 by John Tomlinson

[Harlequin]

5 minutes ago, John Tomlinson said:

I thought people might be amused by this photo of the bits of my 47xx receiving attention.

 

John.

 

Mine has looked like that for 2 years! I haven't summoned the will power to try to drag it back into a working state.

 

I wonder what the proportion is of ones that run with all their details intact vs. dead ones lying in boxes of bits?

 

[atom3624]

Why is this?

Genuinely unreliable?

Over-complicated assembly?

Al.

[John Tomlinson]

2 hours ago, Harlequin said:

 

Mine has looked like that for 2 years! I haven't summoned the will power to try to drag it back into a working state.

 

I wonder what the proportion is of ones that run with all their details intact vs. dead ones lying in boxes of bits?

 

 

1 hour ago, atom3624 said:

Why is this?

Genuinely unreliable?

Over-complicated assembly?

Al.

 

Quite a lot are in bits I suspect, and the thing is definitely over complicated. I've been working on some Hornby WC/BB's at the same time - what a joy in comparison!

 

Anyhow , and much to my surprise, my 47xx is now substantially reassembled, and with a new blanking plate seems to run fine.

 

So it can be done, although I'm gobsmacked - blxxxy amazing!

 

John.

[Ribird]

On 17/07/2021 at 08:50, John Tomlinson said:

I thought people might be amused by this photo of the bits of my 47xx receiving attention.

 

John.

How easy is it getting into the motor?

[John Tomlinson]

35 minutes ago, Ribird said:

How easy is it getting into the motor?

Very easy to get "to" the motor when you're as far in as the situation in the photo.

 

Basically the black cylinder on the left houses the motor, the cylinder slides into the firebox and boiler moulding.

 

The cylinder is in two halves, split lengthways,and secured by a couple of screws. Undo the screws, separate the halves, and the motor is plain to see.

 

As for getting "into" the motor, I suspect forget it. If you have one that's gone, you'll almost cetainly need a replacement, and also need to be able to transfer the flywheels/ worm from the old to the new.

 

John.

[Ribird]

3 hours ago, John Tomlinson said:

Very easy to get "to" the motor when you're as far in as the situation in the photo.

 

Basically the black cylinder on the left houses the motor, the cylinder slides into the firebox and boiler moulding.

 

The cylinder is in two halves, split lengthways,and secured by a couple of screws. Undo the screws, separate the halves, and the motor is plain to see.

 

As for getting "into" the motor, I suspect forget it. If you have one that's gone, you'll almost cetainly need a replacement, and also need to be able to transfer the flywheels/ worm from the old to the new.

 

John.

Thank you! By far the most information I've seen on this! Yes I do have a bad motor from the sounds of it, not sure where to get a replacement motor.

[John Tomlinson]

11 minutes ago, Ribird said:

Thank you! By far the most information I've seen on this! Yes I do have a bad motor from the sounds of it, not sure where to get a replacement motor.

I'd suggest you contact Olivia's Trains in Sheffield.

 

They  did offer a replacement motor service, and for an extra £5 would fit the flywheels/ worm from your old motor - obviously you have to send this to them. This service was as of a year or more ago, so give them a ring first. The motor itself costs around £20.

 

If you are confident of getting the flywheels/ worm off yourself then measure the length of the motor - I think there are two lengths of this can type - and source from Gaugemaster, Peters Spares, or Olivias direct, probably some others as well. I did the fitting myself on a duff motor in a class 16 diesel and really wish I'd paid someone instead, although I did get there in the end.

 

John.

[Ribird]

11 minutes ago, John Tomlinson said:

I'd suggest you contact Olivia's Trains in Sheffield.

 

They  did offer a replacement motor service, and for an extra £5 would fit the flywheels/ worm from your old motor - obviously you have to send this to them. This service was as of a year or more ago, so give them a ring first. The motor itself costs around £20.

 

If you are confident of getting the flywheels/ worm off yourself then measure the length of the motor - I think there are two lengths of this can type - and source from Gaugemaster, Peters Spares, or Olivias direct, probably some others as well. I did the fitting myself on a duff motor in a class 16 diesel and really wish I'd paid someone instead, although I did get there in the end.

 

John.

Thank you! I will keep this in mind whenever I take this beast apart! Already tried returning this once and was denied at customs for some reason! I can tell the motor is the problem, as the wheels barely make any noise. Motor bogs down with any friction on the wheels, along with hating going backwards. Is there a motor spec number anywhere?

 

I will have a go at removing of everything myself, as not in UK. 

Edited July 19, 2021 by Ribird

[Pteremy]

I wonder whether Heljan will ever revisit their 47xx? As a WR modeller I might have considered one - albeit on a rule 1 basis given the section of WR  I am interested in. But  I would not touch it with a barge pole given the design/QA issues that have been well documented in this thread. Perhaps it is destined to be a 'lost opportunity' - unless you happen to be one of the lucky few who got a good one.

[John Tomlinson]

1 minute ago, Ribird said:

Thank you! I will keep this in mind whenever I take this beast apart! Already tried returning this once and was denied at customs for some reason! I can tell the motor is the problem, as the wheels barely make any noise. Motor bogs down with any friction on the wheels, along with hating going backwards. Is there a motor spec number anywhere?

 

I will have a go at removing of everything myself. 

There is a number on the leaflet with the model, but whether this is any use I don't know.

 

The whole Heljan spares situation is not a happy one since they moved from Howes of Oxford. I'd strongly advise you to measure the thing when you get to it and ring one of the people I've listed.

 

Good luck with removing the flywheels and worm, they are very tight indeed and remember you need to get them back in exactly the same place on your new motor.

 

John.

[GWR-fan]

A missed opportunity.  I wanted a couple of 47XX,  a Garratt and an O2,  but alas,  after my experience with two small Heljan class 1361 locomotives,  I came to the realisation that Heljan do not seem to be able to manufacture a user friendly,  reliable steam outline model.  My experience with their diesels and class 128 models are a very positive memory.

[Ribird]

18 hours ago, John Tomlinson said:

There is a number on the leaflet with the model, but whether this is any use I don't know.

 

The whole Heljan spares situation is not a happy one since they moved from Howes of Oxford. I'd strongly advise you to measure the thing when you get to it and ring one of the people I've listed.

 

Good luck with removing the flywheels and worm, they are very tight indeed and remember you need to get them back in exactly the same place on your new motor.

 

John.

Just making sure I'm understanding, for the flywheels and worm, not just front to back position, but the position of the start of the worm, correct? And you never know, might just be something not jiving inside, and turns out to be an easy fix (unlikely)