Jump to content

Hilux5972

Heljan GWR 47xx Night Owl

Recommended Posts

It could be the pony-truck axle not being located correctly.  On my first one, the pony-truck was lifting the driving wheels clear off the rails.

 

Tom

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Funny that,Rob. Because my BR 47XX is to be renumbered in any case and Rails being out of stock on 4705,I have the "newbuild" 4709 .No such problems here,thankfully.....no bits in box,no ski jump.

 

Thanks Ian, Hattons have offered replacement, I have asked if a refund or credit is an option, I hadn't realised 4705 was sold out at Rails, though. Hattons have more than 10.

 

As to the pony truck 

 

Can I ask please, does the front pony truck have a spring on it at all, if not then it sounds like its just been badly moulded when it was made.

 

The only other option I can think of is to replace the front pony with either a self made pony truck or a similar pony truck suitable for a 47xx from a kit provider

 

No spring, an odd design though prone to axle slipping out when in packaging shroud , lovely small flanges on the wheels, it has a air bit of play and ability to sit quite loosely relative to the body.

Edited by robmcg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

...The problem does not seem to be on the transition so I am not sure if there is a "rigidity" problem but will check later. I must admit I was wondering if it might improve with running - I did give it some time on a rolling road but the temptation to hang a train on the back was difficult to resist, I will give it a longer light engine run in before considering return...

 Give it the running on the layout. I believe 'rolling roads' are precious little use for 'running in' for three main reasons. 

The driven wheel tyres don't polish against the rail to anything like the same extent (for improved traction) as achieved by the same time running on track.

The mechanism isn't properly 'exercised' with whatever curves and gradient transitions are present on the layout.

All carrying and tender wheels have seen no operation whatsoever, and most 'free up' significantly with an hour or two of operation.

 

On the latter point, the tender. The O2's tender was sockingly heavy, and if the 47xx tender is the same that will impose significant drag on a 'sharp' gradient. Add to that the pick up wipers on the tender wheels, and that the tender has had next to no running, so neither the bearings or the wiper contact tracks have polished up. I would test the tender on the gradient without the loco, The draggier of my O2's tenders didn't move on a 1 in 40 as received...

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

As an aside I have been reminded by Mikkel (of this parish) that Heljan have 'form' when it comes to 'Shades of Green':

 

30350243058_3ff51de966_b.jpg

Heljan Shades of Green, right to left, Night Owl, Emperor, Explorer and part of Empress

Edited by Silver Sidelines
  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

As an aside I have been reminded by Mikkel (of this parish) that Heljan have 'form' when it comes to 'Shades of Green':

 

30350243058_3ff51de966_b.jpg

Heljan Shades of Green, right to left, Night Owl, Emperor, Explorer and part of Empress

Isn't Explorer the glossy finished version? Empress and Emperor look pretty much the same shade and I wonder if Explorer would be too apart from the varnish? There was a an article a while ago in RM where they varnished a Hornby Star and even that started looking more like the green we think we want (!) under a coat of semi matt! I saw the BR green 47xx in my local model shop at the weekend and to my eye both the green and the lining are perfectly acceptable. 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thanks Mike

 

Yes Explorer has a varnished finish - looks Malachite green to me.

 

Heljan 4705 in BR Green is noticeably different from offerings from Bachmann and Hornby.  Whether it is acceptable and whether it fits with your other models I guess is down to personal preferences.

 

Isn't Explorer the glossy finished version? Empress and Emperor look pretty much the same shade and I wonder if Explorer would be too apart from the varnish? There was a an article a while ago in RM where they varnished a Hornby Star and even that started looking more like the green we think we want (!) under a coat of semi matt! I saw the BR green 47xx in my local model shop at the weekend and to my eye both the green and the lining are perfectly acceptable. 

 

Now whether the shade of green and the colour of the lining is correct, is a different issue.

 

Cheers

 

Ray

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It appears Rails don't stock 47XXs any more.  Presumably they didn't order many, or being around the lowest-price retailer, they sold out quickly, or a combination?

 

The ones I bought from Hattons elicited an enquiry as to the safe arrival of my models.  The six I have anything to do with (friends, plus my own)  from four different retailers, ALL suffered damage in transit, albeit mostly loose bits and front axle needing to be clipped back in place, or wheel re-attached to front axle.

 

One, from TMC arrived with absolutely brilliant packaging, tons of padding, miles and miles of bubblewrap   but still had a loose front axle.

 

One, from AJM was in a smaller carton, well-sealed, with bubblewrap, and had serious damage, front footplate broken off parts everywhere, but I fixed it.

 

Couriers to and in NZ aren't usually too bad, most Hornby and Bachmann models arrive unscathed.

 

I'm wondering if retailers are not too happy about the 47XX ?  Returns must take a lot of staff time.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It appears Rails don't stock 47XXs any more.  Presumably they didn't order many, or being around the lowest-price retailer, they sold out quickly, or a combination?

 

The ones I bought from Hattons elicited an enquiry as to the safe arrival of my models.  The six I have anything to do with (friends, plus my own)  from four different retailers, ALL suffered damage in transit, albeit mostly loose bits and front axle needing to be clipped back in place, or wheel re-attached to front axle.

 

One, from TMC arrived with absolutely brilliant packaging, tons of padding, miles and miles of bubblewrap   but still had a loose front axle.

 

One, from AJM was in a smaller carton, well-sealed, with bubblewrap, and had serious damage, front footplate broken off parts everywhere, but I fixed it.

 

Couriers to and in NZ aren't usually too bad, most Hornby and Bachmann models arrive unscathed.

 

I'm wondering if retailers are not too happy about the 47XX ?  Returns must take a lot of staff time.

It seems clear (sorry), with even well-packed models being damaged in transit, that Heljan's internal packaging simply doesn't support this heavy model adequately within its box.

 

Mine, bought through my local model shop, and allowing for the postal saving, cost me a tenner more than I would have spent with one of the big mail-order outfits. Well worth it for the avoidance of any potential issues IMHO. Interestingly, my retailer said none he's so far received have had anything worse than the odd dislodged pony-wheelset. 

 

I have since found a very small part loose inside the box but neither I or he have so far been able to work out what it is or whence it came. 

 

Presumably, whichever firm delivers them to UK retailers is a bit gentler with the cartons.

 

John

Edited by Dunsignalling
  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It seems clear (sorry), with even well-packed models being damaged in transit, that Heljan's internal packaging simply doesn't support this heavy model adequately within its box.

 

Mine, bought through my local model shop, and allowing for the postal saving, cost me a tenner more than I would have spent with one of the big mail-order outfits. Well worth it for the avoidance of any potential issues IMHO. Interestingly, my retailer said none he's so far received have had anything worse than the odd dislodged pony-wheelset. 

 

I have since found a very small part loose inside the box but neither I or he have so far been able to work out what it is or whence it came. 

 

Presumably, whichever firm delivers them to UK retailers is a bit gentler with the cartons.

 

John

 

As to the last paragraph, overall you are probably right, but the TMC model arrived here in NZ with the absolutely best packaging imaginable but still received damage, albeit minor, just the front axle askew.

 

The model of 4705 which received a few days ago with damage and a ski-jump front running plate responded well to a stern talking-to with a pair of average domestic needle-nose pliers and the plate was bent back into horizontal alignment with prayer and mild force. I think I heard a click as the plate re-located into its correct position, 

 

before;

 

post-7929-0-15261200-1535090012_thumb.jpg

 

after   and please note all pics just now  in natural light, unedited, Canon SX150is camera  aperture priority 0.6-1.0 sec at f8, ISO80. Winter sunlight through trees and window, late afternoon, no other light.

 

post-7929-0-33417600-1535090223_thumb.jpg

 

post-7929-0-63871700-1535091104_thumb.jpg

 

post-7929-0-50838100-1535090599_thumb.jpg

 

I added the last two to show the difference in direct sun and softer evening light I think the green and lining is ok. 

Edited by robmcg
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It seems clear (sorry), with even well-packed models being damaged in transit, that Heljan's internal packaging simply doesn't support this heavy model adequately within its box.

 

Mine, bought through my local model shop, and allowing for the postal saving, cost me a tenner more than I would have spent with one of the big mail-order outfits. Well worth it for the avoidance of any potential issues IMHO. Interestingly, my retailer said none he's so far received have had anything worse than the odd dislodged pony-wheelset. 

 

I have since found a very small part loose inside the box but neither I or he have so far been able to work out what it is or whence it came. 

 

Presumably, whichever firm delivers them to UK retailers is a bit gentler with the cartons.

 

 

If you scroll back to Larry's post 1294,I think you will get a glimmer of what the root cause of this problem is.Chinese regulations are apparently strict on the matter of packaging. I firmly am convinced that this is an assembly problem coupled with a flawed design.i.e it should and must conform to that same regulation.

 

After a request to check prior to despatch,my "4709" arrived via ParcelForce in immaculately intact condition.So how do you account for what seems to be an anomaly?

John

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think Ian is saying that the faults are not all down to packaging.

I cannot test my theory because I have had to send all my 'black' models back. However the picture below seems to me to have a ski jump footplate with the buffers attached horizontally. So were the buffers attached to the already deformed body?

 

post-9031-0-21630400-1535098907_thumb.jpg

 

This particular model was completely 'dead' with a multimeter showing an 'open circuit' across the wheels.

 

Ray

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think Ian is saying that the faults are not all down to packaging.

I cannot test my theory because I have had to send all my 'black' models back. However the picture below seems to me to have a ski jump footplate with the buffers attached horizontally. So were the buffers attached to the already deformed body?

 

attachicon.gif2018_0822Black47xxII0005.JPG

 

This particular model was completely 'dead' with a multimeter showing an 'open circuit' across the wheels.

 

Ray

Ian is saying the packaging is a symptom of the problem rather than the root cause.Coachmann Larry has hit it right on the nail.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The bad packaging theory is certainly plausible but I don't think it explains all the problems. For instance, the frequent problem of the front pony axle not being clipped into the pony moulding. If it had been clipped in properly at the factory I don't see how any force could cause it to jump out while the loco is in the packaging.

 

To know for sure how much the packaging is at fault for the general problems with this model an experiment would need to be carried out: Place a perfect model 47XX in the packaging, maybe add the typical retailer wrapping of bubble wrap/crumpled paper in a larger box inside a plastic mail sack, then throw the whole thing into a concrete mixer for a few minutes and assess the results. Anyone up for that?  :jester:

 

P.S. A separate issue from the manufacture or packaging: I'm sure the skyward-pointing front NEM pocket and guard irons 12 scale inches above the rails are present on every model, visible in every photo (including the recent BRM review), and are a clear design problem.

Edited by Harlequin

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

When I sent a repainted Heljan 47XX to a friend, I did not send it in its box. The box is the culprit where damage is concerned, as it actually damages the weighty locomotive while in transit. The front platform is weak and the model depends on the support struts just like the real thing. When I made new struts (the Heljan struts are an 'orrible shape), I made sure they pressed the front end down until it was level. Heljan also cocked up with the pony truck. Try fitting a coupling in the NEM socket and you will see what I mean. The model below is one of two I repainted in Deep Bronze Green....

attachicon.gifWEB 47XX 31.jpg

Bit of a chicken and egg situation isn't it ? Is the packaging manufactured to a specification designed to make it fit for the purpose of transportation of this model ( probably in a different factory ) and is

the loco of sufficient integral strength built in design to be secure within its cradle ? I think there's a disconnect here.You have rightly already called into question some of the assembly techniques .If the model were securely assembled,would any of these disasters have occurred ? Mine withstood delivery without suffering.

 

Beautiful job btw.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It may be that some locos were damaged while in transit from China to the UK. Box-shifters would probably not inspect individual boxes and would simply despatch them onto customers. Lower quantities arriving at retailers might be examined, sorted and despatched, then it depends on the carrier. 

 

What we do know is small parts come loose or fall off. The loco is very heavy. The front drop plate is of a poor design.The pony truck is a simple affair with a slot for the axle. Add all this together and you need a form of moulded expanded polystyrene packaging that holds the loco firmly in place so that it has no forward or rearward movement.  None of this sort of damage in new to me. Heavy 0 gauge locos suffered if they were not securely packed front, rear and around the cab roof area.  In the days when we could not trust the GPO, we were thankful when couriers like Interlink set up business locally in the 1970's. Things went full circle eventually and today I entrust everything to the GPO 'Special Delivery' service. But even this service will not protect a poorly protected loco.

Edited by coachmann
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Just to support what Coachmanis saying here is a previously very nice DJH Duchess that was poorly packed by the vendor and left to the tender mercies of DPD!

 

 

post-1047-0-32149000-1535116086_thumb.jpegpost-1047-0-57525800-1535116137_thumb.jpeg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

BR 4705 arrived curtesy of the Royal Mail undamaged and all parts correct and in place except !!! The pony wheel axle was half detached from the truck, a common occurrence looking at previous posts but easily rectified . Really makes you wonder how this happens! Certainly not in transit. Otherwise pleased with the Night Owl. Which leads me to comment on the name following earlier discussions on the name. I have a friend in Plymouth who was at Laira back around 1960 so when Heljan first announced that they were going to produce the Night Owl, I mentioned to him that I was looking forward to a 4700. He immediately responded 'Night Owl' so was in use at Laira.

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

In case anyone was thinking of not buying one of these brilliant models.....

 

unedited

 

post-7929-0-74345200-1535347557_thumb.jpg

 

nice bit of late winter sunshine, NZ.

 

cheers

 

 

 

 

  • Like 9

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thanks for the comments. The problem does not seem to be on the transition so I am not sure if there is a "rigidity" problem but will check later. I must admit I was wondering if it might improve with running - I did give it some time on a rolling road but the temptation to hang a train on the back was difficult to resist, I will give it a longer light engine run in before considering return. Once again thanks for suggestions and comments.

 

Trev

Well I have given the loco a lot more light engine running, and just loosened the drawbar a tad. It seems to have settled down and is handling my normal loads O.K. I have managed to lose the chimney top 3 times now so it has Benin fixed solid!

 

Thanks for the various comments.

 

Trev

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I know people don't like too many of my edited pics which are 'not about modelling', many complain, apparently, to Andy Y, or say they block my posts, so in view of the latter this won't appear and sully their serious modelling experience, and to the former, I apologise and hope you will show some patience with me.

 

cctransuk (John Isherwood) said my pictures were basically me just showing off, 'look what I've done'...  but not about modelling, which is true inasmuch I think the Heljan RTR 00 Class 47XX model makes a very nice scene.  And I do enjoy showing the model off.

 

Camera is a point-and shoot Canon SX150is ISO80 f8, 0.6 secs, edited with PSP6 software. Very little indeed done to the model itself, will remove if asked.

 

post-7929-0-99916900-1535496139_thumb.jpg

 

What a stunning machine, how well I remember seeing heavy steam in its heyday, in dramatic evening light!

 

If you prefer you can have a clean 47XX as Coachman would perhaps (or not) approve....  on a sunny summer Saturday in the late-'50s with some excess stock used for intensive workings to the west...

 

post-7929-0-80023000-1535498164_thumb.jpg

 

cheers

 

p.s. here below are two versions of Heljan's 47XX photos taken in similar light with same camera Canon EOS-M with 18-55mm lens set to about 45mm, aperture priority at f29, 8-13 secs, ISO100.

 

Shows the difference in the GW green post war and the lined BR green, somewhat...

 

post-7929-0-53536400-1535509592_thumb.jpg

 

post-7929-0-21090200-1535509644_thumb.jpg

 

Not purely scientific but possibly a guide to the vexed subject of GW greens.  The last pic of 4707 was a model just arrived today, usual front axle needed re-fitting, and injector pipe from under driver's side cab loose in packaging, 'otherwise fine', just like English summer weather. :)

Edited by robmcg
  • Like 16

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Keep posting the pics Rob, even with it's minor faults I still like Heljans attempt at the class, lightly weathered yes, I can't say that I ever saw one really dirty as Old Oak tended to treat them as 'pets', they were loathed to let 4701 & 4704 go as they seemed to be held in the scrap line for months before leaving. No idea why some should be 'vexed', green came in a myriad of shades something to do with not being a primary, and a sensitive colour to light perhaps. Rtr - modelling there's an irony somewhere ??

Edited by bike2steam

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Keep posting the pics Rob, even with it's minor faults I still like Heljans attempt at the class, lightly weathered yes, I can't say that I ever saw one really dirty as Old Oak tended to treat them as 'pets', they were loathed to let 4701 & 4704 go as they seemed to be held in the scrap line for months before leaving. No idea why some should be 'vexed', green came in a myriad of shades something to do with not being a primary, and a sensitive colour to light perhaps. Rtr - modelling there's an irony somewhere ??

 

Thanks, I was going to entitle this pic of a post-WW2 GWR 47XX 'Make way for the King' but it leaves too much room for bad puns. :)

 

This is a TMC-weathered 4707.  As to the various shades of Brunswick green to be seen on BR, they were indeed many. Quite expensive for me to buy but I knew they wouldn't weather a 'bad 'un'.

 

Photos in web searches and in books show 47XXs in what might be termed 'light weathering', which is what you would expect, but some in late BR days and also some in the 40s looked distinctly uncleaned to me.  Plenty of room to choose even heavy weathering, although not perhaps the so-called 'end-of-life' style we saw at the end of both SR and WR steam for Standard classes in particular.

 

Anyway, it was an impressive engine and all power to the 4709 Trust, I must see how that build is coming along.

 

I always liked the pictures of engines which were being serviced...   fires dropped, smokeboxes emptied, and so on, or in this case raising steam after being lit up.  Very little done to the photo of the model, mostly just blending background. Canon EOS-M 18-55mm lens at 48mm, 13 secs at f29 ISO100 , zone focussed, daylight from adjacent window plus 40w reading lamp.. Edited using PSP6 software.

 

post-7929-0-72719200-1535578520_thumb.jpg.

 

reminds me of the days I spent hanging around engine sheds with my 'Agfa Clack'...  I am not old enough to have seen a GWR 47XX though!

 

will remove if asked

 

cheers

Edited by robmcg
  • Like 8

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It seems like Heljan can get lining right as shown on their O gauge 61XX which has noticeably more orange lining especially on the cylinders.

post-34820-0-11441000-1535647417.png

compared to the 47XX

post-34820-0-88505500-1535647404.png

Edited by JamieR4489
  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

We have placed cookies on your device to help make this website better. You can adjust your cookie settings, otherwise we'll assume you're okay to continue.