Kernow 117 3 car DMU

[The Stationmaster]

Not easy but I think I am with Chris one the first vehicle

 

The pattern of door hinges is right and that looks like a suggestion of a white roof dome at the far end

 

Cant say about the second vehicle though!

 

Phil

It looks like a DET (Drive End Trailer) at the far end - and definitely at Reading shed by what I can see.

 

The unit in the colour picture is  Pressed Steel set (fitted with ATC clip-up gear and a Trip Cock for working over London UndergrounD lines - i.e. into Paddington Suburban) and either on a training trip or possibly even arriving new from Scotland.

[Froxfield2012]

Thanks to everyone for the information.  The Pressed Steel unit seems to have been going back and forth.  I have another shot of it on the same film (the same day) on the down main at Tilehurst carrying the code 2H49.

 

Richard

[Andy W]

Can anyone who had the opportunity of discussing these models on the Kernow stand at Warley, or has info that's no longer embargoed, say exactly what the plan is?

A 3 car 117 set in which liveries, with or without internal gangways between cars, future plans for 118s or 116s?

[stovepipe]

 

The top photo is a Pressed Steel 3 car suburban unit (class 117). When new they did not have the marker/tail lights under the cab windows, these were fitted when they were refurbished in the 1970s. The cut off buffers were common on all the long underframe units, some had full Oleo large round buffers and some oval buffers. It was not unknown for a single coach to have all three types. Birmingham RCW units (class 118) looked very similar, the main visual differences being they had the marker/tail lights from new and the headcode box had a nice curved top that matched the roof profile, not a flat one as found on a Pressed Steel unit.

 

Also not forgetting that the 117s had gangways fitted in the late 1960s/early 1970s. About 2/3rds had been completed by end of 1969 according to my IA Combine. I suppose they would have been painted all blue at the same time as the modification.

[Dave47549]

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Edited October 2, 2021 by Dave47549
Removed pointless guff

[The Stationmaster]

Can anyone who had the opportunity of discussing these models on the Kernow stand at Warley, or has info that's no longer embargoed, say exactly what the plan is?

A 3 car 117 set in which liveries, with or without internal gangways between cars, future plans for 118s or 116s?

All explained on Kernow's announcement - basically a  sort of 'vote for a livery' and the most popular 'wins' for the initial production run. 

[Clive Mortimore]

Can anyone who had the opportunity of discussing these models on the Kernow stand at Warley, or has info that's no longer embargoed, say exactly what the plan is?

A 3 car 117 set in which liveries, with or without internal gangways between cars, future plans for 118s or 116s?

And hopefully a Lee Valley set (class 125)...........not all suburban DMUs ran on ex GWR lines, there is the rest of the country.

 

And while I am at it would there be any chance of the 116 power cars being available on their own, or as a four car set for the Bedford/Luton/St Albans to Moorgate services, where the units were composed of a 3 car set with an additional power car?

 

Centre cars separately? So those who still model make can convert 117 or 118 into the Marylebone (115) and St Pancras (127) 4 car units?

[farren]

hi Clive this would suggest not 

 

We initially looked at producing a two car unit with the centre car to be added later.  This has the advantage of keeping initial costs lower but being mindful of our Thumper experience we have decided to produce three car variants from the initial release.  This is a late change on our part and this has meant we have had to ask China to revise our program to cater for this.  As a result we are unable to give prices for these models although we hope to complete our negotiations for these very soon and that will be a key part of our discussions when visiting our factory next week.

 

as i writing did any of these DMUs make in to Leicester? in the 50s/60s 

[Clive Mortimore]

hi Clive this would suggest not 

 

We initially looked at producing a two car unit with the centre car to be added later.  This has the advantage of keeping initial costs lower but being mindful of our Thumper experience we have decided to produce three car variants from the initial release.  This is a late change on our part and this has meant we have had to ask China to revise our program to cater for this.  As a result we are unable to give prices for these models although we hope to complete our negotiations for these very soon and that will be a key part of our discussions when visiting our factory next week.

 

as i writing did any of these DMUs make in to Leicester? in the 50s/60s 

Hi Farren

 

Oh (not a RMweb word) !!!!!!!!

 

Class 116 units from Tysley were sometimes used on Leicester to Birmingham services in the 1970s. I don't think they were regulars before then.

[Andy W]

hi Clive this would suggest not 

 

We initially looked at producing a two car unit with the centre car to be added later.  This has the advantage of keeping initial costs lower but being mindful of our Thumper experience we have decided to produce three car variants from the initial release.  This is a late change on our part and this has meant we have had to ask China to revise our program to cater for this.  As a result we are unable to give prices for these models although we hope to complete our negotiations for these very soon and that will be a key part of our discussions when visiting our factory next week.

 

as i writing did any of these DMUs make in to Leicester? in the 50s/60s 

As the 116s were built at Derby over a period of 4 years different delivery routes to the WR must have been used from time to time and the odds are that at least one of the units passed through Leicester Midland when new. Given the complicated route necessary to get from Derby Works onto the GC main line perhaps Leicester Central would be less likely though not impossible.

 

Another issue Clive might find is that these models are to be through-wired so you wouldn't just need to cope with any differences in the bodies of 117 or 118 trailers compared to 115 or 127 ones, you'd also need to modify the electrics, assuming you wanted lighting (with or without DCC). A 116 trailer has no toilets so would be even worse as a starting point.

Edited November 23, 2014 by Andy W

[Legend]

I'm hoping Kernow go all the way North and a Trans-clyde 116 is on the agends. Circa 1979 would do me fine ta

[cromptonnut]

I've asked the question on their Facebook page "Do they plan a sound fitted option like the Thumper that I've got pre-ordered".

 

I know fitting a chip in is not difficult but their bulk buying power may save a few quid somewhere along the way.

[Clive Mortimore]

As the 116s were built at Derby over a period of 4 years different delivery routes to the WR must have been used from time to time and the odds are that at least one of the units passed through Leicester Midland when new. Given the complicated route necessary to get from Derby Works onto the GC main line perhaps Leicester Central would be less likely though not impossible.

 

Another issue Clive might find is that these models are to be through-wired so you wouldn't just need to cope with any differences in the bodies of 117 or 118 trailers compared to 115 or 127 ones, you'd also need to modify the electrics, assuming you wanted lighting (with or without DCC). A 116 trailer has no toilets so would be even worse as a starting point.

Hi Andy

 

As a 60s modeller, who does not run his trains in the dark, I have no need for lighting. I tend to disable the lighting on my models as it is too bright. Internal lights were very dim on DMUs. Headcodes were illuminated by very low wattage bulbs, and most DMUs carried tail lamps instead of using the red rear lights. Model railway manufacturers do tend to make the lights too bright.

 

The cab light of a 03, if you have the latest Bachmann model you will see what I mean about model lights.

[TheSignalEngineer]

As the 116s were built at Derby over a period of 4 years different delivery routes to the WR must have been used from time to time and the odds are that at least one of the units passed through Leicester Midland when new. Given the complicated route necessary to get from Derby Works onto the GC main line perhaps Leicester Central would be less likely though not impossible.

 

.

I would expect the main option for deliveries from Derby to the WR would have been Tamworth - Saltley - Bordesley Junction - Tyseley.

[jonathan452]

A 116 trailer has no toilets so would be even worse as a starting point.

Ditto a Class 125 trailer?

 

But if Class 116's are to be produced as well as the Class 117/8's then two types of trailer will required?

Edited November 23, 2014 by jonathan452

[Andy W]

More than that, some 116s were built with all-second trailers, and others with composite trailers. Someone who has access to drawings could perhaps tell us if there was any difference in window spacing or just in the seating fitted. Then some trailers were fitted with gangways later in life, while others weren't. Quite a minefield.

[Budgie]

I'd like a 3-car class 116 in green with the speed whiskers and the two-digit class number on the front, composite centre car, non-gangwayed, as supplied originally to the Cardiff Valleys, just like the one pictured here. Then I'd like a couple more.

[Clive Mortimore]

You mean a Class 125 trailer?

Hi Jonathan

 

The Derby 3 car sets (116) had no lavatory in their trailer cars, both the TS (dia 555) and TC (dia 600) had the same body with different seating. The Lee Valley (125) TS (dia 597) had no loo but differed slightly in the arrangement of the saloons compared to a 116 which resulted in a different arrangement of windows. The TS of the 115 and 127 sets (dia 590) were not the same as either the TS in the 116 or the 125 when it comes to the seating and window layout. On the 115 the TC(L) (dia 599)  had the first class at the opposite end than in a TC(L) of a 117 and 118 (dia 601) again resulted in a differing window pattern. The TS(L) of the 127 (dia 589) differed again window wise compared to the TC(L) of a 117 or 118.

 

For the diagrams see http://www.barrowmoremrg.co.uk/BRBDocuments/BRDMUIssue.pdf

[Andy W]

I would expect the main option for deliveries from Derby to the WR would have been Tamworth - Saltley - Bordesley Junction - Tyseley.

Certainly, it's the shortest route, and Saltley men signed the road the whole way to Tyseley making deliveries easy to roster without remanning. Derby-Loughborough-Leicester-Nuneaton-Saltley was and still is the recognised alternate for trains needing to get onto the Bordesley route. Knowing Saltley I suspect that some of their crews signed the road between Derby and Leicester, they seemed to get just about everywhere else on the Midland and beyond, and obviously routinely worked into Leicester from New Street or Washwood Heath.

 

Anyway, since I can't model WR lines in the West Midlands in the green diesel period without a 116, I'll be after some with speed whiskers myself.

[MJI]

2 trailer shells, possibly 3, 2 power car shells with 3 different ends minimum.

 

116 and 125 are AFAIK the same shells.

 

117 and 118 are very similar but different cab roofs. Also pre and post refurbishment on 117s.

 

it wouldf also be prudent to offer the 115/127 TS as some 116s used these in later years

[BR(S)]

Mixed livery 118:

 

Class 118, with W51325 leading at Cardiff by blackwatch55013, on Flickr

 

Heath Robinson repair on a centre window:

 

14.07.84 St Ives   Class 118 Set P471 by philstephenrichards, on Flickr

[TheSignalEngineer]

Certainly, it's the shortest route, and Saltley men signed the road the whole way to Tyseley making deliveries easy to roster without remanning. .

Some Western men also worked into Washwood Heath on freights from the Bordseley direction, so Duddeston Road could be a changeover place if the set was going straight through to say Reading.

[farren]

Thanks for all your replys. I think I will just get one.

 

I see there using the forerunner to one way glass the well documented one way wood never did take of.

[Gwiwer]

Kernow have scanned a 117 as per their own newsletter and announcement advice.

 

It would seem reasonable therefore to suggest this might be the first version actually produced and with the slides in the tooling utilised for classes 116/8 on later runs.

 

Again as per Kernow's own advice we are to be offered the chance to express interest in livery, class and 2 or 3-car combinations once they have a price from China.  That they don't is down to a late decision to go for three-car units based upon the experience of (and no doubt feedback from) the class 205 Thumper which many have sought as a 3-car and for which the absence of a centre trailer seems to be adversely affecting sales to an extent.

 

Sensibly we are also advised that non-gangwayed versions will also be offered where appropriate.  All were built non-gnagwayed.  Class 117 gained gangways from Hawksworth coaching stock while still green (with I believe a few exceptions) while the other classes were converted more slowly with blue examples being non-gangwayed in some cases until quite late, possibly even those which went for early withdrawal.

 

I sincerely hope this project does as well for Kernow as it deserves to.  How often have these types featured at or near the top of wish lists?  And we get input into our preferred variants with all those reaching 250 orders definitely to be produced.

 

I'll wait for the final price before a final decision but I can easily justify a 3-car 118 in non-gangwayed green SYP, in gangwayed blue FYE (which could be a 117) and a 117 in b/g.  The 117 in GWR150 livery is a nice option as well and might hopefully run smoothly with the Hornby bubble car of the same ilk.

[chrisf]

A couple more complicating factors -

 

1.  There were two shades of "BR green".  The set in the picture that Budgie posted is in the lighter green, which I call 'almostbutnotquite malachite', used between 1956 and 1959.  The 116s came out in that.  From 1959 a darker green was used, borne by the 117s and 118s, and by the 116s when repainted.

 

2.  A lot of the Cardiff 116s delivered in 1958 ran around for quite a while without the speed whiskers.

 

OK, OK, I'll go and annoy somebody else now ...

 

Chris