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Dettingen GCR might have been layout


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Really not much to show for this month.

the brake rigging has been fitted to all the bogies, not that you can tell from the top, let alone the side.

D59C0213-C4B0-4CE3-A9F9-C59A903BDB5B.jpeg.c961a3d29d074d1841289c50e75c8d17.jpeg

buffer housings have been drilled out for five of the seven carriages. Two more sets to do. It is more painful and tedious than you might imagine.

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pipes and some kind of lever to fit to the buffer beams. Then on to the roofs.

richard 

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Hi Richard

I've been reading quite a bit of your thread over the last week or so. Although I found it sometime ago I never went back to it then - more's the pity.

In particular the Parker 45 footers. I have the two D&S kits to build at some stage although my priority currently is ex GN stock for my mid to late 1930s layout set fictitiously somewhere between the GC LE and the ECML, possibly somewhere west of Peterborough or Grantham - such that when either of those lines were out of action trains could be routed through my main station - Nottsborough Victoria. This station is essentially a combined GN/GC  built station.

 

Anyway back to the Parkers. I know of course that Dan made a substantial error with the BTK in that its a mirror image of what it should be. So I propose to replace the sides at least, with those from Worsley Works. Now I also understand the issue with the amended beading on the lower sides so I had better also replace the TK with later sides. Now I also have a spare set of D&S Parker bogies (actually I have 4 sets but 3 are set aside as replacement bogies for Perseverence non-gangwayed coaches I have - one set of which are already now in place on a secondhand coach I picked up from a friend here in South Australia). By the way I didn't quite build the central bogie's springs as intended in the kit now I can see what you've done, but from outside of the bogie no one would really know. So the spare set could go under another Worlsey body so I'm thinking the luggage composite to provide some first class accommodation. If I'm going to buy 3 bodies I might as well buy a fourth, probably a Brake First and hope somewhere along the way I can pick up another set of bogies - I' don't think I'm going to cut my own like you have done.

 

Anyway that's it for now - I must find time to continue reading the rest of your thread.

 

Andrew 

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The matter of the altered lower beading doesn't help me to come to the long awaited decision to build my D & S Parker TK kit. Whilst I can see how I might alter the beading to later form to suit 1930s modelling, such an alteration simply creates a greater set of problems in respect of successful application of convincing scale lining, if the previously posted picture of carriages in the bay at Lincoln is taken to show the standard style for the altered Parker bogie stock.

Even if that photograph suggests that it may be possible to get away with a single yellow line on the lower middle horizontal bead, rather than attempt the near impossible task of perching two neat narrow lines on it edges, it is much easier to rule on a set of single straight lines, with square corners, than to create nice neat curves at all of the corners.....

 

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12 hours ago, Woodcock29 said:

Hi Richard

I've been reading quite a bit of your thread over the last week or so. Although I found it sometime ago I never went back to it then - more's the pity.

In particular the Parker 45 footers. I have the two D&S kits to build at some stage although my priority currently is ex GN stock for my mid to late 1930s layout set fictitiously somewhere between the GC LE and the ECML, possibly somewhere west of Peterborough or Grantham - such that when either of those lines were out of action trains could be routed through my main station - Nottsborough Victoria. This station is essentially a combined GN/GC  built station.

 

Anyway back to the Parkers. I know of course that Dan made a substantial error with the BTK in that its a mirror image of what it should be. So I propose to replace the sides at least, with those from Worsley Works. Now I also understand the issue with the amended beading on the lower sides so I had better also replace the TK with later sides. Now I also have a spare set of D&S Parker bogies (actually I have 4 sets but 3 are set aside as replacement bogies for Perseverence non-gangwayed coaches I have - one set of which are already now in place on a secondhand coach I picked up from a friend here in South Australia). By the way I didn't quite build the central bogie's springs as intended in the kit now I can see what you've done, but from outside of the bogie no one would really know. So the spare set could go under another Worlsey body so I'm thinking the luggage composite to provide some first class accommodation. If I'm going to buy 3 bodies I might as well buy a fourth, probably a Brake First and hope somewhere along the way I can pick up another set of bogies - I' don't think I'm going to cut my own like you have done.

 

Anyway that's it for now - I must find time to continue reading the rest of your thread.

 

Andrew 

Thanks for your kind words. If you are getting a set to build the first brake and luggage composite build as is. It is the brake third which needs the surgery. As for the bogies. The complex shape was the sides. The rest is flat mainly straight pieces. The fiddle of the side piece inserts around the central springs can be much simplified as most is hidden. I found that after building it. I enjoy seeing your builds. I do not  comment much as my knowledge gets less the further I get from the gcr. I know it is very parochial of me.

richard 

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8 hours ago, gr.king said:

The matter of the altered lower beading doesn't help me to come to the long awaited decision to build my D & S Parker TK kit. Whilst I can see how I might alter the beading to later form to suit 1930s modelling, such an alteration simply creates a greater set of problems in respect of successful application of convincing scale lining, if the previously posted picture of carriages in the bay at Lincoln is taken to show the standard style for the altered Parker bogie stock.

Even if that photograph suggests that it may be possible to get away with a single yellow line on the lower middle horizontal bead, rather than attempt the near impossible task of perching two neat narrow lines on it edges, it is much easier to rule on a set of single straight lines, with square corners, than to create nice neat curves at all of the corners.....

 

Wordsley works do both options of beading. Would a merged model of that with the d&s work. You could move the early sides on. There must be some one mad enough to make the missing bits up. 
richard 

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Indeed, but even if the parts from different sources are a mutually perfect fit that won't put the radiused corners into the yellow lining for me :(.

 

I'll no doubt bite the bullet at some stage anyway and treat the exercise as another excuse for profanity.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Not much to show for a weeks work, just the couplings for the end of the trains. Not fitting them to the middle of the rakes life is not long enough. And where the actual couplings will be and these would interfere. 
2739FBEB-4A06-4327-BF79-5CE0FCAB26F7.jpeg.b61d21865871f44a190e15d09f23ce74.jpeg

I hope to get a bit more done this weekend as it is due to rain.

richard 

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Steps and coupling hooks fitted. 
0DC869C5-419C-45FB-A122-7425ECA88E1A.jpeg.7df14c586d9aecc8ea874844e2a85f8a.jpeg
0EC52583-9AB4-4437-B0C9-A87043483301.jpeg.659891a2e4ab151bb273e8556356ae63.jpeg

 

they need cleaning up. I had to make extra steps. I lost 6 to the carpet gods, but found four so had to make an extra 2. That’s about par for the course for fitting small items for me.

buffers and hoses next. 
richard 

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On 24/09/2020 at 06:45, Woodcock29 said:

Hi Richard

I've been reading quite a bit of your thread over the last week or so. Although I found it sometime ago I never went back to it then - more's the pity.

In particular the Parker 45 footers. I have the two D&S kits to build at some stage although my priority currently is ex GN stock for my mid to late 1930s layout set fictitiously somewhere between the GC LE and the ECML, possibly somewhere west of Peterborough or Grantham - such that when either of those lines were out of action trains could be routed through my main station - Nottsborough Victoria. This station is essentially a combined GN/GC  built station.

 

Anyway back to the Parkers. I know of course that Dan made a substantial error with the BTK in that its a mirror image of what it should be. So I propose to replace the sides at least, with those from Worsley Works. Now I also understand the issue with the amended beading on the lower sides so I had better also replace the TK with later sides. Now I also have a spare set of D&S Parker bogies (actually I have 4 sets but 3 are set aside as replacement bogies for Perseverence non-gangwayed coaches I have - one set of which are already now in place on a secondhand coach I picked up from a friend here in South Australia). By the way I didn't quite build the central bogie's springs as intended in the kit now I can see what you've done, but from outside of the bogie no one would really know. So the spare set could go under another Worlsey body so I'm thinking the luggage composite to provide some first class accommodation. If I'm going to buy 3 bodies I might as well buy a fourth, probably a Brake First and hope somewhere along the way I can pick up another set of bogies - I' don't think I'm going to cut my own like you have done.

 

Anyway that's it for now - I must find time to continue reading the rest of your thread.

 

Andrew 

 

Very sorry for being slow to respond but I have been having a bit of a catch up and just spotted this.

 

The error in the carriage being a mirror image isn't down to Danny Pinnock. The artwork and original were done by Andy Gibbs, when he wanted carriages for his "Whetstone" layout.

 

The kits were passed on to D & S as Andy was not interested in becoming a kit producer/retailer and there were quite a few people asking about getting hold of some, including me!

 

The amended beading has proved quite elusive to pin down any details of when they were actually changed.

 

It seems to be that at least some carriages were altered very early, or perhaps some batches were even built with the revised panelling.

 

It would be good to know just how long examples with the original panelling lasted in that form.

 

Does anybody know?

 

 

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Original beading: Not long from my understanding. A date, alas I could not say. Whilst I have studied the photos a lot I have been focusing on livery rather than date. I do feel that I have dug around enough whilst building these to produce an article. Though I am sure there are better qualified than I to write one. What I have learnt might also be generally known, but just not known to me before now. If I did write an article it would be one of the things I would try to work out, like the date for switching from gas to electric. 
Richard  

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Very slowly coming along.

half of the buffer shanks fitted. 
50F1F6A7-EE53-4277-AFA3-132F9DFCC290.jpeg.06c7c6b600ee4d3442c755ccb4e93434.jpeg

though I will only fit the brake pipes on the end coaches. I do want a representation between the carriages but not sure yet how to show the joined pipes without fouling the couplings. I know there is a way, but I need it to be robust .

richard 

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  • 2 weeks later...

What looks like a big step forward.

9D88E95A-FD1C-45BA-A073-19394D1423E3.jpeg.50b249b090bf67baf80df260c51ef58a.jpeg

it is possible to do this with all 7 carriages but then they would all look much of a muchness. 
might need to increase the depth of the bolster to lift the buffers a fraction. 
then paint the underframes or working on the roofs. 
richard

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The underside with the bolsters glued in place. 
3356FAE6-4676-4FCC-9AF3-1658F1BE8F15.jpeg.b19f8614691a2505943d54be9f25b854.jpeg

Have gone for the same dimensions as the d&s version. Either it acts like a simple compensation or all the coaches will wobble, but at least they will all wobble the same amount.

getting more done as i have week off. However, not as much as I might like. For some reason because I can make things/ repair things a list appears each holiday. So far I have repaired an umbrella, a t shirt and the front door. Plans have been pushed my way for a bench for the front with a back AND panels behind it, (“so it looks nice”). In case I was likely to get bored. I am not sure what the worry is, does the family believe I will misbehave if I am left to my own devices?

richard

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A gap in the weather allowed painting to be done. Does need touching up and painting of the foot boards black. 
FAE22A76-A302-4363-B061-4C808ED353B2.jpeg.2b45d956a23ec44f0dfa4757af9d0275.jpeg

also drilled all the holes for the door furniture. The sides look like Swiss cheese between all the holes I have drilled in the right place, and the ones etched through in the wrong place on the etches. 
FD76E8F2-D899-43A3-8A94-E197495C7610.jpeg.da27ed37b418e10a9510b6acca2b2e0f.jpeg

In the debate of “paint first then fit furniture” versus “fit furniture then paint” I am leaning towards the later for stronger joins and I will work the masking around it. Two won’t need masking as I am going to try and flood the panels with the cream and the d&s one already has the furniture fitted so that is almost half anyway. Might as well go for scrape the handle clean approach afterwards. 
let’s see if the gamble pays off.

richard

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Next big question. 
I hate thinking I know what I am doing and then find my plans scuppered.

rover russet brown is according to the list a good match for GWR brown. However it is darker than I have used previously from a pot. 
1CE5BED3-5CFE-4223-9932-62F41652ECA8.jpeg.3bc8f40bd391a07657656f671e9424bc.jpeg

Also I thought that body colour would carry on to the main frames, like for gcr freight stock. However, looking closely at pictures you can just make out lining 

774CDEC3-DC01-4B91-B500-0646858062DF.jpeg.7013a641fb859e10797bc49de3585532.jpeg

which suggests it was like the matching dining stock where lining can clearly be seen. See photo in following slide. 
 

now to the colours. The strip with lining around it looks the same as the body colour. So is the backing colour black? Is the rover russet brown just too light, given the darkness in the photos and other stock? 
images to follow of real carriages to throw a spanned into the works.

 

Any/ ALL ideas gratefully received. 

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The general tones of all of the colours in my on-screen image of the second six-wheeler appear relatively bright and light to me, compared to the other image. That doesn't help with true comparisons of the brown and upper panel colour, although I think I've noted the same sort of disparity of the carriage colours in all images of those two vehicles that I have seen. Do they both purport to represent cream upper panels, or does one have them finished in an interpretation of French grey?

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Richard,

I think you are on a hiding to nothing.  The two black and white photographs could be/are different exposures so look different.  The two colour photographs, are they the same coach on the same railway, or two different coaches on two different railways.  If the first then the exposures/lighting is different, if the latter, then the interpretation of the GCR colour is different.  Either way, if you paint your coaches of one batch all the same colour then I do not think you can go wrong.

 

As for the lining, to my eyes, (old tired, both long and short sighted with a blood clot behind one), the line looks like a reflection off beading/ panelling.

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The two period photos clearly show lining on the solebars and ends of headstocks, which to someone who knows next to nothing about Great Central carriage liveries clearly indicates that they are painted the same as the lower body panels and ends. Question: is the beading painted body colour (per LNWR, NER) or black (per GWR, MR)? If black, then my reading of the solebar on the kitchen car is that it there is a round-ended panel of body colour on a rectangular black panel which has lining on both sides; whether the solebar outside the black rectangle is black or body colour is moot.

 

I don't think the preserved carriage in either livery is evidence, even though it appears to be on its original underframe. The panelling style is different, for one thing. In the first photo, the underframe is black, which is probably down to lack of information; in the second, the milk chocolate colour suggests that the restorers took their advice from Hornby's livery advisor...

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1 hour ago, gr.king said:

The general tones of all of the colours in my on-screen image of the second six-wheeler appear relatively bright and light to me, compared to the other image. That doesn't help with true comparisons of the brown and upper panel colour, although I think I've noted the same sort of disparity of the carriage colours in all images of those two vehicles that I have seen. Do they both purport to represent cream upper panels, or does one have them finished in an interpretation of French grey?

One is cream and brown, the other French grey and brown, but the brown stayed the same,( as far as I know) .

1 hour ago, ChrisN said:

Richard,

I think you are on a hiding to nothing.  The two black and white photographs could be/are different exposures so look different.  The two colour photographs, are they the same coach on the same railway, or two different coaches on two different railways.  If the first then the exposures/lighting is different, if the latter, then the interpretation of the GCR colour is different.  Either way, if you paint your coaches of one batch all the same colour then I do not think you can go wrong.

 

As for the lining, to my eyes, (old tired, both long and short sighted with a blood clot behind one), the line looks like a reflection off beading/ panelling.

I think you are right, hand painting it is then unless the precision paints or rail match rattle can has the darker colour...and I can get to a shop to pick it up.

6 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

The two period photos clearly show lining on the solebars and ends of headstocks, which to someone who knows next to nothing about Great Central carriage liveries clearly indicates that they are painted the same as the lower body panels and ends. Question: is the beading painted body colour (per LNWR, NER) or black (per GWR, MR)? If black, then my reading of the solebar on the kitchen car is that it there is a round-ended panel of body colour on a rectangular black panel which has lining on both sides; whether the solebar outside the black rectangle is black or body colour is moot.

 

I don't think the preserved carriage in either livery is evidence, even though it appears to be on its original underframe. The panelling style is different, for one thing. In the first photo, the underframe is black, which is probably down to lack of information; in the second, the milk chocolate colour suggests that the restorers took their advice from Hornby's livery advisor...

i think your interpretation matches my initial hunch on the sequence of colours on the solebars. They have gone back into the paint shop to go all over black, then buffer beams will be brush painted black. I have a plan forming to make my own transfer for the brown panel on the solebars, let’s see if it comes off. I also agree that the second Carriage seems too light a shade.

 

thank you all for your advice, most needed in these, can’t get to club to ask days. 
richard

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My thoughts that begged the question regarding the upper panel colours were these: If one vehicle has cream uppers, and the other French grey, then not only might the eye's interpretation of the brown be influenced, but the digital capture and the generation of the on-screen display might also be skewed, yet even allowing for that it is difficult to believe that the browns as applied to those two restored vehicles are the same, even if they should be the same.

In which restorers do you place most faith??? Intriguing. With a lovely pre-group livery the dodge of masking the exact colour under a generous dose of weathering doesn't usually have much appeal, and may not be an authentic thing to do to a model of that era.

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7 hours ago, gr.king said:

With a lovely pre-group livery the dodge of masking the exact colour under a generous dose of weathering doesn't usually have much appeal, and may not be an authentic thing to do to a model of that era.

I agree these liveries are for display rather than hiding.
Without knowing how much research either group did, I would not want to say which is more accurate. 

Richard  

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