Dettingen GCR might have been layout

[richard i]

Result. A B+

some bleed but it I can find a pot of similar black I can blend in.

Test on the springs is way off

richard

[Regularity]

1 hour ago, richard i said:

Result. A B+

You testing your blood group, or something?

[richard i]

1 hour ago, Regularity said:

You testing your blood group, or something?

Universal receiver if I was. More saying the method worked but had room for improvement. 

[richard i]

Lots of paint going on.

questions.

what colour do people think the safety valves were. Brass and red lever? Black all over? Green all over?

what about the hooks on the side tank for holding the fire irons. Dirty yes, but what colour would be under the dirt?

any thoughts gratefully received. Black and white photos are not helpful on colour and works painting specs do not always cover these shed level modifications. 
many thanks

richard 

[Caley Jim]

Can't comment on the GCR, but on CR locos safety valve cases were the same colour as the loco, i.e. blue on Westinghouse fitted*, black on unfitted, with a red lever.  Uncased valves were polished brass.

 

Jim

 

*There were some fitted locos in goods black livery, mainly condensing locos and the 0-8-0's and 0-8-0T's

[richard i]

Does this feed the debate. 
An 11b safety valves - same colour? Brass?

and a class 3  black safety valve? With brass beading top and bottom?

I wish I did not care it would be so much quicker but I hate it when I get it wrong and find out later.

views?

richard

[ChrisN]

It does not look like brass to me.  I think brass would be shinier.  This GWR loco is pre polished brass.

[Clive Mortimore]

Richard

 

I would paint them which ever you think looks right. I am not to sure there are many people alive who can remember the MS&LR in its heyday. If there is someone who can remember the safety valve colour and they are able to inform you all the better.

[gr.king]

I'm not helping here, but even showing the greatest respect for age, how much faith would you put in the powers of recall and accurate communication of a centenarian, in respect of something minor like the colour of a safety valve cover?

[richard i]

All the above is true, however, someone might have a document which clearly states the colour. I just had to ask. 
thank you for the advice.

richard 

[gr.king]

In the photo of Queen Alex the cover looks paler, so not Brunswick Green, black, or any variety of red or red-brown. Might it be grey?? On the 2-4-2T I'd say it matches the tone of the green paintwork. Remember that the GC livery "rules" were slightly different for each class, they changed over time in some cases, and there's that historic observation of many variations on the shade of green on locos at Leicester, so you can probably paint the safety valve colour according to your own judgement and ignore anybody's claims that it is "wrong" unless they can produce firm proof of what would be "right".

[Edwardian]

My tuppeneth:

 

- I doubt reliable conclusions can be drawn from black and white photographs, tempting though it is to try. 

 

- My expectation would be that the safety valve casing would be green (as you have painted it), and, that only the cylinders of the safety valves themselves would be brass, not any casings.

 

However:

 

 

 

This might be evidence that the cases were also polished brass, or, of course, it might simply be wrong, the colourist treating the casing in the same way uncased valves would appear.

 

[gr.king]

I suppose the tone of the valve cover on Queen Alex could equally be that of fairly heavily tarnished brass - but the brass splasher beading on the loco looks well polished as does the steel reversing rod, possibly the handrails too. Maybe that cover was just a bit too awkward for the crew to get at, so it didn't get the regular proud buffing that the rest of the bright bits did?

[Edwardian]

48 minutes ago, gr.king said:

I suppose the tone of the valve cover on Queen Alex could equally be that of fairly heavily tarnished brass - but the brass splasher beading on the loco looks well polished as does the steel reversing rod, possibly the handrails too. Maybe that cover was just a bit too awkward for the crew to get at, so it didn't get the regular proud buffing that the rest of the bright bits did?

 

To me, the casing on Queen A looks like dirty brass (exposed cylindrical brass valves show dull-blackened in service), and that on the Class 3 painted green.  However, having looked at many photographs on many livery issues, I do not believe that B&W photographs give reliable impressions. 

 

If I were going by B&W photographs, however, I would say that they consistently appear to show unpolished casings of similar tones to the painted livery.  See, for example, pictures in E M Johnson Locomotives book, vol 1: The 9Gs on p26; Belpaire Class 2 p33; Class 11A p36 and p93; and a rather polished 9K p79.

 

Some examples might be less obviously painted in appearance, but do not suggest to me that they are more likely brass than paint. The only pictures where the casing seems noticeably paler than the base, possibly suggesting grimy brass, is that picture of Queen A and one of a 9N on p107.

 

EDIT: Since posting I glanced through vol.2.  The big blocky casings on the Directors really do look like they could be brass.  Perhaps the casing on the 9N, and later locos, represents a change of practice? I'd go for green on the earlier types. 

 

The answer, it seems to me, may lie with the material in which the casing is made.  If the casing was fabricated from steel, it will be painted; I suggest green.  If the casing is made from brass, the GCR might either have painted it or polished it.

 

When I think of cased Ramsbottom valves used by other railways, the casings are invariably painted - in the same colour as the boiler/main livery - e.g. LSWR and GER.  This is why my expectation is that they are painted on the GCR, but the CGC might have been different!

 

 

Edited August 19, 2021 by Edwardian

[Bedders]

Photographic grey, but this appears to be painted rather than shiny - https://ba.e-pics.ethz.ch/catalog/ETHBIB.Bildarchiv/r/100993

Also grey, but inconclusive to my eyes - https://ba.e-pics.ethz.ch/catalog/ETHBIB.Bildarchiv/r/101164/

Green and looking a bit shiny - https://britbahn.wdfiles.com/local--files/gcr-11f-class/GCR_11E_No430_Marylebone_1917.jpg

Same - https://britbahn.wdfiles.com/local--files/gcr-9n-class/GCR_9N_Class.jpg

Same - https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/locomotive/images/5/55/GCR_8D.png

LN&ER looking green - http://www.ipernity.com/doc/philsutters/25553327

 

Conclusion? Probably dull brass, perhaps changing to green at a later date?

 

[richard i]

Some great thoughts and pictures I have not seen. The brass / steel issue would be Important I feel. The later engines 9n etc do seem to have brass ( dull ) but these pre Robinson locos, maybe, maybe not. I think I will stick with green or black. The lever was red: almost certain of that. I will see if it looks alright once that is painted. 
thank you one and all for your views. Much appreciated. 
Any others with views gratefully received.

richard. 

[richard i]

A morning in the light allowed me to finish off all painting of the loco.

views on safety valves welcome.

 

now for the lettering and mostly white lining, though there are some white/ black/ white lines to go on.

At this stage after attending to bits where the paint bled, I am willing to give the spray black, mask , spray green method an A- score. Let’s hope the white lining can be made to conform to the outline.

richard 

[richard i]

First two panels have their outline. 

Very pleased how the top of the cab came out.

the lining is a bit thick but at .3 mm was as small as fox did in their range. The thinner ones I have tried before kept breaking whilst being applied which is just frustrating and not as neat.

I will tidy up the overhanging lining.
only 15 other panels to do.

need to still put on the double lining and wording and crest on these panels.

richard 

[richard i]

Getting there.

it is not as far advanced as you think as the other side has yet to be started.

did some measuring from photos and it seems it needs the small lettering but with big crests. Those will be added once the othe side is complete.

richard 

[richard i]

A more frontal shot for comparison.

the colour looked quite muted from the rear.

richard

[richard i]

Done lining! Had to take my glasses off as the vari focal was making straight lines look curved. Still do not thing I have got all the lines straight compensating for it. Any one else have this problem? What are your solutions?

lettering to fit. Then glazing, number plates ( on order from narrow planet) and maybe works plates. ( careful how much I guild this Lilly as it was only meant as a proof of concept.) coal and………….weathering ( maybe) 

Richard 
 

[Caley Jim]

18 minutes ago, richard i said:

Done lining! Had to take my glasses off as the vari focal was making straight lines look curved. Still do not thing I have got all the lines straight compensating for it. Any one else have this problem? What are your solutions?

I do all my modelling with a pair of prescription reading glasses (and magnification).  I find my varifocals are no use for it, especially with the magnification!  I can tell right away if I've got the wrong ones on!

 

Jim

[richard i]

This is a philosophical question.

one is my f2 up to my current standards. The other (left hand one) is an F1 ( you can tell by the lip on the back of the bunker.) I was lucky enough to be offered it, but it is clearly different and of it’s time.- oversized letters, crest might be a shade over size. Limited lining.

do I:

leave it?

add the missing detail and patch paint to improve it but keep its heritage?

paint he tops of the water tanks black as that is the most obvious change?

a full repaint as the colour is off and the lettering too large? There is much evidence that locos were not painted the same shade of green but would it be this different?

thoughts

richard 

[Regularity]

If it bothers you, change it.

If it doesn’t bother you, leave it alone.

 

Only you know that, and no one else’s opinion matters, unless you are building it for a competition, in which case exact fidelity to the prototype is your guidance.

 

 

[richard i]

On 27/08/2021 at 16:40, Regularity said:

If it bothers you, change it.

If it doesn’t bother you, leave it alone.

 

Only you know that, and no one else’s opinion matters, unless you are building it for a competition, in which case exact fidelity to the prototype is your guidance.

 

 

Thanks for your succinct summary. I do agree with your sentiments, however, I am conflicted about the best course of action and am open to hearing others thoughts on the matter to see how they view the balance between improvement vs keeping historical modeling. 
richard