Dettingen GCR might have been layout

[richard i]

2 hours ago, gr.king said:

Have you by any chance fitted the castings for the shoes and pushrods inside-out? Unless those brake levers both (unusually) have reversing cams at the base of the V hanger, hidden by the door springs, it appears to me that they will release rather than apply the brakes when pushed down.

 

If it is an error it won't be the only wagon model to have been built that way.

I followed the picture provided. Should have checked more photos. They will be staying that way now, but I will know for next time.

have built a wagon in a day, it is foreign NER so I put it together quickly.

On to painting.

they now all need to go into the paint shop.

richard

[richard i]

The next project begins as paint is drying. 
A question though. The drawing shows battery boxes below 

had them at the end of its life

however this build photo does not. Show them. 

now I thought perhaps gas as the earlier builds had transverse gas cylinders. Later builds had battery boxes for the kitchen from the start. So what did this have to start? From the picture it looks like nothing! What am I missing? Anyone who is good at interpretations underframes on photos? 
many thanks for any thoughts,

richard 

[Compound2632]

Built 1890, I see. I wonder if it was oil-lit when new. Any interior views as built? Gas lighting only seems to have become widespread in the 1890s. When was it introduced on the MS&L?

[richard i]

Only have these if they help work out if it is oil. Would that do the kitchen too?

surely there would be some containers to store the oil. We’re they inside then?

richard

[Andy Hayter]

Isn't the bulbous object below the lamps an oil reservoir?

 

https://foter.com/antique-hanging-oil-lamps

 

 

[Compound2632]

59 minutes ago, richard i said:

Only have these if they help work out if it is oil. Would that do the kitchen too?

surely there would be some containers to store the oil. We’re they inside then?

richard

 

Typical 1890s overstuffed high Victorian opulence!

 

Ordinary carriage oil lamps were self-contained units inserted in a hole in the roof as required so there was no external oil supply - the lamps were filled before being put in for the journey. These fancy lamps look to be more-or-less fixed - at least one can't imagine lifting them out through the roof. But they do I think match up with what one sees in the external view - small cylinders on the clerestory roof that I suppose are the flues. 

 

Where there originally cooking facilities in the attendant's compartment? There might be a stove on which food could be heated, rather than full-on meal preparation - more of a pantry than a kitchen. Such a stove could well use solid fuel. 

 

51 minutes ago, Andy Hayter said:

Isn't the bulbous object below the lamps an oil reservoir?

 

https://foter.com/antique-hanging-oil-lamps

 

That sort of thing, though those might be thought a bit restrained for 1890s taste.

[Andy Hayter]

I don't disagree about the styling, the link was there more to show the size of the oil reservoir.  ie not very big.

[Compound2632]

1 minute ago, Andy Hayter said:

I don't disagree about the styling, 

 

I was being frivolous, of course.

[richard i]

2 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

I was being frivolous, of course.

None of this has been frivolous to me. Thank you both for your advice. So little below on the underframe. 
At least to start its life. All I need now do is work out when electricity was fitted.

richard 

[richard i]

Done bar the couplings.

a mixture of lettering. Some with big numbers some will have plates. Some with stars and some with out. Some with coal wagon lettering and some without. With wire mesh siding and not. Oh the variety from a humble 5 plank. 
the NER lettering was from a sheet of BR restaurant car letter. It still has to have its outs side toned down with weathering too.

richard 

[Compound2632]

51 minutes ago, richard i said:

Oh the variety from a humble 5 plank. 

 

Each pre-grouping company had its standard 4 or 5-plank open wagon, built by the thousands and tens of thousands in the last couple of decades of the 19th century. To get a proper proportion, one should build one for every other modelling project one completes.

[richard i]

A long shot. On the carriage which is oil fired for the lights. Does anyone know when it went to electric? Did it pas through a gas phase? 
the Parker stock from about 8 years later were gas fitted from new in 1898. They converted to electricity some time around 1906-1910 it seems. Would this have followed that pattern or would it have skipped a step/ been slower on the up take as it was as director’s saloon. Or would it have been first because it was a director’s saloon? 
does any one know or have knowledge of other lines and their approach. 
it matters as I am torn between teak or chocolate and cream. Teak almost certainly was electric but C and C might have been any of the three options. Do I go for certainty or the livery which looks best on it?

richard

[richard i]

The insides have reached a stage where paint will need to be applied before fitting.

perhaps a bit much, but if some can be seen then perhaps it is worth it.

I still have to solve the issue of the chairs and sofa. 
After discussion at club with Jim I think I will build it with batteries to run as if it has electric lighting. Still to decide on livery though.

richard 

[richard i]

Too far?

then fitted. 

tables and chairs to go. 
should probably focus on the outside a bit more.

I am trying to work out how many pipes on the end there was vacuum, steam heat, but Westinghouse too? So it could run on other systems?

richard 

[Manxman1831]

Hi Richard, it's been a while. Looking at the late picture of 1033 as the Edinburgh inspection saloon, I think we are looking at it from the opposite side to that shown in the drawing - I've been having this kind of fun trying to work out underfloor details for the Kitchen First that I'm tackling - and I think that what is actually happening is the battery box is under the corridor, outside the attendants compartment, while there is a gas cylinder under the compartment itself (presumably for the stove).  In the as-built picture, looking at the roof, there are a number of vents which appear to be as follows (left to right) - oil-lamp flue in the lounge room, two circular fan vents, stove flue (all three over the attendants compartment), (possible toilet filler vent), another oil-lamp flue (in the corridor outside the smoke room, and then the final oil-lamp flue (in the smoke room).  As has been suggested before, this would indiate that the stove was solid-fuelled.  The oil-lamps are intriguing me, since the one in the lounge appears to be hinged at the glass bonnet level (which would allow for the assembly to be tilted for filling from someone up a set of ladders), while the one in the smoke room appears to be a fixed unit, or it is hinged in the other direction?

I can only imagine that 1033 was altered to electric lighting after Watkin had departed from the GCR, and it would not be the only coach of the time to have electric lighting and a gas stove - from what I can glean from the Dow volume 2, the Kitchen First had this arrangement as well, as did most every other buffet car on the LNER during that time as well.

[richard i]

Thanks

i had not seen anything on the roof so I will look again harder next time.

it has got to the stage of being propped up on its bogies.

holes drilled for hand rails so bogie pivots to make and the roof detail, then painting.

richard 

[richard i]

Pipe question. 
this is from the end so I assume air baked too. 
I do not want air brakes, so how many of the other pipes do I need? 

I am thinking vac pipe and steam heat pipe, but which are they.

clever pipe people help please

many thanks

richard 

[Caley Jim]

3 hours ago, richard i said:

Pipe question. 
this is from the end so I assume air baked too. 
I do not want air brakes, so how many of the other pipes do I need? 

I am thinking vac pipe and steam heat pipe, but which are they.

clever pipe people help please

I wouldn't claim to be a CPP, but the Westinghouse pipes were plain, rather than corrugated, and usually thinner than the vacuum and steam heat ones.  It's hard to see clearly in that photo, but I would guess the one with the upstand is the Westinghouse, so you dispense with that.  Open to correction, though.

 

Jim

[richard i]

I thought that the tall one and the far right were the wrinkly ones but open to correction.

richard 
 

[Caley Jim]

2 hours ago, richard i said:

I thought that the tall one and the far right were the wrinkly ones but open to correction.

richard 
 

I've looked at some photos of CR coaches and locos and the 'hang' of that right hand pipe (nearest the camera) certainly looks more like a Westinghouse one  Pity you don't have a GA drawing which would show the runs of the pipes and so identify which was which.

 

Jim

[jimwal]

Youv'e a lot of pipes there Richard! The high placed one to the left looks like a vac pipe. The one curving over on the headstock has the typical shape of a Westinghouse pipe. So that leaves two, one steam heat and the other???

 

Note the Gresley bogies - is this a later date view than your modelling period?

[Compound2632]

7 hours ago, Caley Jim said:

Pity you don't have a GA drawing which would show the runs of the pipes and so identify which was which.

 

But a GA would probably show original condition (which would be informative); presumably the Westinghouse gear was an addition when the carriage was moved to the Southern Scottish Area (as I gather)? Steam heat would also not, I think, be original but a 20th century addition. When was steam heat generally adopted for main line stock on the Great Central? 

 

5 hours ago, jimwal said:

So that leaves two, one steam heat and the other???

 

The steam heating system might call for two pipes? Or, was the carriage ever fitted for motor train operation using the vacuum-controlled regulator (VCR) system? (Did the LNER use that?)

 

5 hours ago, jimwal said:

Note the Gresley bogies - is this a later date view than your modelling period?

 

Quite.

[Regularity]

Did rolling stock have “pipe diagrams” issued?

 

Agree that it looks to be in later condition, also that the number of pipes is consistent with some form of control/communication, but note the electrical cable for the latter. 
 

Incidentally, airbrake pipes are smooth: they either contain air at atmospheric pressure, or at a higher pressure up to the usual working pressure - 70 psi for most lines (the EWJR used 55 psi). Vacuum brake pipes are ribbed because they contain metal tings to stop them collapsing when the pressure is reduced below atmospheric.

 

You can see that the working range of air pressure is about 5 times greater for air brakes than for vacuum (which may not quite get right down to 0 psi) and hence more powerful.

[Compound2632]

2 hours ago, Regularity said:

Did rolling stock have “pipe diagrams” issued?

 

The Derby C&W DO drawings include examples of drawings showing modifications to the running gear of stock, such as changes to the arrangement of brakes - the best examples that survive are for the fitting of off-side brake levers to vacuum-fitted NPCS. There are also a number of drawings for the (retro)fitting of steam heating to passenger carriages, from 1900 onwards. Not all these detail drawings survive in the Midland Railway Study Centre collection.

 

I see the GCRS has an archive at Immingham; there's a list of the drawings they hold here, some are evidently originals.

[richard i]

15 hours ago, jimwal said:

Youv'e a lot of pipes there Richard! The high placed one to the left looks like a vac pipe. The one curving over on the headstock has the typical shape of a Westinghouse pipe. So that leaves two, one steam heat and the other???

 

Note the Gresley bogies - is this a later date view than your modelling period?

This is from its days in Scotland in the 1960s. Hence Gresley bogies too. I like you have run out of ideas for what all the pipes might do.

 

10 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

But a GA would probably show original condition (which would be informative); presumably the Westinghouse gear was an addition when the carriage was moved to the Southern Scottish Area (as I gather)? Steam heat would also not, I think, be original but a 20th century addition. When was steam heat generally adopted for main line stock on the Great Central? 

 

 

The steam heating system might call for two pipes? Or, was the carriage ever fitted for motor train operation using the vacuum-controlled regulator (VCR) system? (Did the LNER use that?)

 

 

Quite.

this was not fitted for motor train operation, nor do I know which system the lner used. I believe at least two types were in use at the same time at least. Westinghouse might also have been with the arrival of air braked stock. Later modelers when was that being rolled out? Having said that gcr fish vans were dual braked from the start so they could go on other systems (NER?) 

 

2 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

The Derby C&W DO drawings include examples of drawings showing modifications to the running gear of stock, such as changes to the arrangement of brakes - the best examples that survive are for the fitting of off-side brake levers to vacuum-fitted NPCS. There are also a number of drawings for the (retro)fitting of steam heating to passenger carriages, from 1900 onwards. Not all these detail drawings survive in the Midland Railway Study Centre collection.

 

I see the GCRS has an archive at Immingham; there's a list of the drawings they hold here, some are evidently originals.

I am a member of the GCRS so can see all the digital archive but have yet to get up to immingham to see in person. It is a bit of a haul from here. Most of what is digitized is line diagrams like the one in the back of the Dow book. Ones with more detail seem to be of locos or tenders in the main, or at least that seems to be the case.

 

many thanks for all the thoughts they have been helpful.

richard