Dettingen GCR might have been layout

[Poggy1165]

I don't know if it will help, Richard, but there are some GCR signalling diagrams here. The only snag is most of them are as amended in later years. I was interested to find that 'Conisborough', has the 'double distants' I was talking about. Others may too, obviously I haven't been through them all. Some more are here. Again most are as revised (there are some exceptions) and they are mainly for the northern part of the system, which may be less useful for you. There's enough to keep me looking for hours - I've just been ten minutes with Levenshulme South. Often the main changes are the replacement of distants with colour lights, but it's hard to say because even in LNER days there was a lot of resignalling done, and signals were not always replaced in the same place or by the same exact type of signal. So caution is needed in assessing these.

 

I would never put a signal beyond the point it controls. This is bad practice, though there were some examples of it, most notably on the LNWR. What you are modelling though is a 'modern' piece of railway, and everything would be state-of-the-art for 1899. In theory, a driver is entitled to take his engine to the place where his front buffers are in line with the 'board', so this should never be a fouling point. Where these rules were not observed I can only think they relied on 'line knowledge', but this early practice would not have been found on the London extension. (And I very much doubt anywhere else on the GCR at the era in question.)

 

As to how to make signals I can refer you to no better place than this thread by Jon Fitness. Although he works in 7mm, the principles are the same. And although he calls his signals 'average' he is being very modest. There is also some discussion of signal placement on the thread, which again may help.

 

(Edit) I have been looking at a few signalling diagrams and found at least one (Dodworth) where a signal is shown half way through the points! However at least it was a subsidiary (leading from a fan of sidings) so I still hold to my general point.

Edited February 28, 2016 by Poggy1165

[richard i]

Thank you for all the signal advice, I considered and reviewed it whilst taking the kids to Legoland. I am still debating how to do the signals for the down roads. I shall think some more.

 

On the other hand my d10 is finished.

 

And with the d11 for comparison

Next up signals or carriages, but as the weather is good I might try spraying more options for lner green to see if I get a match.

Richard

[Poggy1165]

On the subject of signalling, Richard, signal posts on the GC were for many years painted buff with an indian red base. At some point they changed to the more normal black base with white post. I think it was probably pre-1914, but as so often, I can't give a firm date for the change.

 

As you may know, any distant arms should still be red. The GC invented the modern distant, but only started painting arms yellow in 1918, in the London area. The process took a long time to complete. I have some documentation that proves the CLC were still busy yellowing distants as late as 1928.

[richard i]

On the subject of signalling, Richard, signal posts on the GC were for many years painted buff with an indian red base. At some point they changed to the more normal black base with white post. I think it was probably pre-1914, but as so often, I can't give a firm date for the change.

 

As you may know, any distant arms should still be red. The GC invented the modern distant, but only started painting arms yellow in 1918, in the London area. The process took a long time to complete. I have some documentation that proves the CLC were still busy yellowing distants as late as 1928.

The blurb that came with the mse bits said the signals were white with a bauxite base section. That might match the Indian red, however, as nice as that change would be to show, it would make more sense for me to go white/ black as that then fits with running the lner and BR trains when I do let them stretch their legs.

This is progress so far, just the hand rail and then I will paint it before doing all the wires and arms.

I will hold off on the other as I am still undecided whether to do a bracket or two single posts, and even if I chose which I still have to decide where to site them.

Richard

[Poggy1165]

That looks really good Richard. As it happens I need to make some similar ones in 7mm and have just sent off for a stack of parts from MSE to go with the other stacks of parts I have bought from assorted other sources. (For example Gladiator used to do some proper pukka 7mm scale signal arms and I bought a stack years ago against this day.) I also have a stack of prototype photos to work from, albeit most of the really good ones are BR era. 

 

In theory working in 7mm scale should be much easier than doing it in 4mm, but we shall see. If I can get mine looking as good I shall be well pleased. 

 

I agree in your circumstances black and white posts make sense. In fact anything else looks slightly odd to our modern eyes. See for example the Midland boys with their chromium yellow posts!

[richard i]

Thank you for your kind words.

Before I finish it off and it all gets too complicated to retro paint, are all bits in the right colours? Platforms wood? Finials white? Lamps white? Ladders black?

Any help gratefully received

Richard

[richard i]

Forgive me I have sinned.

No progress on signals as I built an n gauge layout for my boys. Five days to make.

Double apologies it is modern American diesels

I promise to be good from now on.

Richard

[Clive Mortimore]

Modern? Come on Mr Historyman, Conrail went out of business in 1998.

[richard i]

Modern? Come on Mr Historyman, Conrail went out of business in 1998.

I normally model pre grouping so 1998 is modern to me. Besides in artistic terms modern was a specific time period which we have moved beyond and so are now post modern or even beyond that.

[Edwardian]

Humph, I tend to view anything post the Reform Act of 1832 as current affairs, rather than history.

[richard i]

Signal done, it was a double swear and I now see why layout signals slowly appear, as no one can want to build a batch of them.

But yes it works, now it needs fitting and getting to work on the layout. That's electics so that will be waiting a while.

 

It has GCR support, finials and lamps, can we tell, maybe only the support.

More once fitted

Richard

[richard i]

Signal in situ

The lean will go once screwed down.

Richard

 

Why did it turn the image upside down? The layout is not in Australia ?

Edited March 21, 2016 by richard i

[richard i]

And the builds go on.

The first of a pair of four wheelers.

 

 

Will need to get the rest of the train at a later date.......soon

.

Build photos to follow as work progresses. Sould be simple, it is Bedford kit I find them a pleasure to build.....once I have worked out what every piece on the etch is.

Richard

[t-b-g]

Hello Richard.

 

It is good to see that you are taking some time and trouble to get the signalling right.

 

I will just put forward a thought for your bracket signal. If the RH loop line is for goods only, it would be unlikely to have the same type of arm as the main line.

 

According to the LNER Constituent signalling book, goods loops were signalled with a 3' 6" long arm fitted with an oval ring.

 

A suitable oval is supplied as part of the etch from Wizard/MSE.

 

Just to confuse matters, I have also seen some photos with a round ring rather than an oval one.

 

Also, the cast iron bracket was usually painted black rather than white, although this did not seem to be universal.

 

I hope that gives you a bit of guidance and I hope that you don't mind me bringing it to your attention.

 

Keep up the good work.

 

Cheers,

 

Tony 

Edited March 22, 2016 by t-b-g

[richard i]

Any advice happily received,

The arms are the same length as that was what I had but I will look into getting the correct sort.

I will get on to the bracket repaint too.

To be honest this will most likely be a temporary signal as I am not 100% happy with it and it will either go back into the works or I will try again from scratch.

I will be able to pick up more bits in the summer when I am back in the UK for a month, and I will have another go in the autumn.

Richard

[richard i]

Question time

How do I set up the brake rigging on a 4 wheeled coach?

I have two rods and a third diamond with three holes in it.

Does the picture help

 

Progress so far on the first

 

Any help gratefully received

Richard

[Caley Jim]

Question time

How do I set up the brake rigging on a 4 wheeled coach?

I have two rods and a third diamond with three holes in it.

I suspect the 'diamond' you mention is a crank which fit on the cross rod between the V-hangers and has one rod attached to one end and the other to the other end, each rod going to a an 'A' frame which operates the brake blocks.  Are we taking Westinghouse or vacuum here?  There will be a cylinder for one or other (or both) also acting on the cross rod.

 

Jim

[richard i]

I think the diamond piece is called a tumbler, but I have more questions: one shoe per wheel (push brakes) or two (clasp)?

What is the prototype for the kit? Who is the manufacturer? Are there no instructions? Have you contacted the manufacturer at all?

It is a GCR 4 wheeler of mslr origin. It is a Mousa model kit and they come with no instructions, but bill is helpful when I ask what pieces are and there are generic instructions on line, I just didn't see order of fit. I will play around with the tumbler idea. It has two bakes per shoe so is clasp braked.

Richard

[Caley Jim]

It is a GCR 4 wheeler of mslr origin. It is a Mousa model kit and they come with no instructions, but bill is helpful when I ask what pieces are and there are generic instructions on line, I just didn't see order of fit. I will play around with the tumbler idea. It has two bakes per shoe so is clasp braked.

I take it you mean two brake shoes per wheel, i.e. clasp brakes.  There should be a triangular 'A' frame piece running across the vehicle between opposite brake shoes, the inboard one having its apex above the axle and the other its apex below.  The upper end of another 'tumbler' is pivoted on the apex of the one above the axle, the one below being pivoted on its centre and the lower end is then attached to the pull rod from the tumbler on the cross rod between the V hangers.  When the rods are pulled, first one set of shoes are pulled into contact with the wheel and the apex of their 'A' frame becomes the fulcrum to pull the other shoes on.  Easier to demonstrate then describe, so I hope this is clear.    

 

Jim 

[richard i]

Progress on the first class carriage.

Externally all done, I feel it needs need an interior as it had compartments and so the light should not flow freely through it.

Then on to painting. Still leaning towards teak but brown and cream has a certain appeal.

Richard

[billbedford]

They might have got brown and french grey, but I doubt they had brown and cream livery. One of the quirks of the MS&L was that they only put ventilators over the smoking compartments, these were usually at the ends of the coach.

[Caley Jim]

They might have got brown and french grey, but I doubt they had brown and cream livery. One of the quirks of the MS&L was that they only put ventilators over the smoking compartments, these were usually at the ends of the coach.

The Caledonian were the same.  HAVOK vents on the end, smoking compartments only.

 

Jim

[Poggy1165]

I wonder if they ended up in 'painted teak'. I can't imagine that anyone would have wanted to invest much money in such old stock. Lovely model though, very attractive. A train of them, fully finished, would look absolutely superb.

[t-b-g]

One of them ran as late as the mid 1960s on the East Coast Main Line. It was a Luggage Tri-Composite in earlier times but ended up in Departmental use carrying S & T supplies between Peterborough and Retford S & T depots. Painted in Departmental black livery, it was attached to passenger trains when needed as it often contained delicate components and they didn't want things to get damaged by being roughly shunted with goods wagons.

 

It is now preserved on the KWVR.

 

http://www.vintagecarriagestrust.org/MS&L.htm

 

I wish I knew more about GCR carriage livery but this one seems a little odd as preserved. It looks to be Brown/French Grey but I always thought that in that livery the upper panels were not picked out in Brown.

 

I am not sure of dates but these 4 wheelers may have been a wood/teak/oak brown colour before they were painted Brown/French Grey.

Edited April 4, 2016 by t-b-g

[richard i]

They might have got brown and french grey, but I doubt they had brown and cream livery. One of the quirks of the MS&L was that they only put ventilators over the smoking compartments, these were usually at the ends of the coach.

Hello filler my old friend, must use you once again

Cover up the mistakes I make

To improve the look of the rake....

 

That's as far as I got.

Richard