Dettingen GCR might have been layout

[richard i]

And the trouble with traveling around is only certain things can get done.

Have built a couple of GER lomacs for some suitable cars. These have joined the painting queue.

 

Then a Cambrian wagon which had to stop as I need to solder up the bar over the top and was away from the soldering iron.

 

And lastly an idea to convert a park side lner sulphate wagon into a GCR coal wagon.

You can see the original side, the attempt to convert a side before accepting I could not reconcile the number of ribs on the side. So thirdly the scratch built sides. On the positive it has used the ends, floor, under gubins and bogies of the kit and the sides took just over a night to make.

I still have to bend round the angle fitted to the side below the sole bar.

I some how feel I should finish these before starting something else.

Richard

[richard i]

The sides of the coal wagon are not bowed in real life it must be the camera playing tricks again

[richard i]

Complete, almost....

It is just resting on the bogies . It is not perfect, but for just a side conversion it came together reasonably quickly. There is something to be said for that when I need 100 plus wagons and 30plus coaches and all need building by me.

Richard

[Poggy1165]

The GC also had some 20 ton steel loco coal wagons which look remarkably like a GW Felix Pole at first sight. The GE had some very similar. I have often wondered whether a conversion of a GW wagon would be practicable but I suspect there would be a lot of detail differences, inches here and there.

[Caley Jim]

The CR also had some similar 30T coal wagons, but with the outer sets of doors slightly nearer the ends than these.  Unfortunately they were too far ahead of their time as there was not the infrastructure at docks, steelworks, etc. for efficiently unloading them.  Most ended up as loco coal wagons and some had the doors removed and were used as general merchandise wagons.

 

Jim

[gr.king]

I see bogie wagons are topical.......

[richard i]

The CR also had some similar 30T coal wagons, but with the outer sets of doors slightly nearer the ends than these.  Unfortunately they were too far ahead of their time as there was not the infrastructure at docks, steelworks, etc. for efficiently unloading them.  Most ended up as loco coal wagons and some had the doors removed and were used as general merchandise wagons.

 

Jim

Something similar here, it all boiled down to most collieries not wanting to convert their loading areas to accept the new wagons.....from what I understand.

[Caley Jim]

It wasn't so much the loading, just stop the wagon three times under the hoppers, but the unloading. A tippler designed for a 20ft long 4 wheel wagon wasn't much use for a 30ft long bogie wagon!

 

Jim

[richard i]

I think it was a bit of both, some where I recall that they were too high? For the filling points but it does seem strange having just built immingham docks to then build something that could not use it.

 

Whilst I wait for the paint to dry.

A little wagon for a corner of the layout. Trying out wood building. Just going to give it some washes to dirty it up.

Richard

[richard i]

Farm wagon weathered and placed in the field. Yet to be glued down as always wait to see if it is the best place for it.

 

It is empty, can't decide what it would have left in it whilst it sat in a field. 1900 farming not a strong point of mine. Who would guess I wrote my dissertation on farming in Essex in 1805, but then I never had to set foot on a farm to write that. Academics versus practical and all that.

Any ideas appreciated.

Richard

[Andy Hayter]

I doubt a valuable cart like that would be just left out in the fields to slowly rot.

 

In winter it may well have brought hay out into the fields for the beasts.  But you are clearly not set in winter, so the best I can come up with would be turnips/manglewurzles (cross between a beet and a swede - probably not botanically) - again as fodder for the animals.

[Edwardian]

That is a very attractive cart. I would imagine it is a hay cart as it is designed for light high loads. I would not have thought it suitable for root crops, which would probably be carted in a waggon or tumbril.

 

Well, most model railways seem to be set in the summer.  The greens of spring and early summer are pretty intense and field margins and verges sprout cow parsley and other weeds in abundance. Judging from the shot above, Dettingen might be taken to be high-summer from the shades of grass.

 

I have decided to attempt May-time, and the first thing I noticed  when considering this is that the seasons start at different times in different places.  If I compare my shots showing the state of verges, hedgerows, rough grass and crops in the south in May, they resemble the shots I have taken of the north country in June!     I mention this simply because both latitude and the weather in a particular year will have an effect upon the farming timetable, as you are doubtless the first to appreciate.

 

That aside, assuming two cuts, you could be hay-making in May or June.  Hay-making might well extend into July; after drying it would need to be gathered and secured in a stack.  This suggests that you could easily model the cart in use; in the field being loaded with hay, at the part-built stack, unloading, or full or empty en route between the two. 

 

If you are modelling late summer - your grass shades might suggest August - you will be too late for hay, but, such a cart could be used for moving wheat sheaves.  Although steam thrashing could be set up in the fields, it was not every field that would be suitable for heavy steam thrashing sets come the winter, and, so, in August the sheaves might be brought home to the farm yard to await thrashing there. 

 

I think your cart would be entirely suitable for such work.

 

What I don't think you would see is it simply sitting abandoned in a field, picturesque though that might appear, so, in order to include it en scene, you probably need to depict it in use, either for moving the hay harvest or the wheat harvest.

[Londontram]

And the trouble with traveling around is only certain things can get done.

Have built a couple of GER lomacs for some suitable cars. These have joined the painting queue.

image.jpg

 

 

Great layout and very interesting thread, one question though would cars of this quality have been carried open on lowmacs where they would get covered in smuts and soot. Around this period the railway company's would have had a good selection of covered carriage trucks (CCT) for this type of traffic and the lowmacs used for things like agricultural equipment etc. CCT's would have been loaded the same way from an end ramp as they were equipped with opening end doors. Sorry just my thoughts. Steve

[webbcompound]

would cars of this quality have been carried open on lowmacs where they would get covered in smuts and soot. Around this period the railway company's would have had a good selection of covered carriage trucks (CCT) for this type of traffic and the lowmacs used for things like agricultural equipment etc.

 Although plenty of flatbed carriers for carriages/automobiles still around. The LNWR one at NRM was built in 1908  http://www.nrm.org.uk/OurCollection/LocomotivesAndRollingStock/CollectionItem?objid=1988-7009

Edited July 29, 2016 by webbcompound

[Edwardian]

And the trouble with traveling around is only certain things can get done.

Have built a couple of GER lomacs for some suitable cars. These have joined the painting queue.

image.jpg

 

Then a Cambrian wagon which had to stop as I need to solder up the bar over the top and was away from the soldering iron.

image.jpg

 

And lastly an idea to convert a park side lner sulphate wagon into a GCR coal wagon.

image.jpg

You can see the original side, the attempt to convert a side before accepting I could not reconcile the number of ribs on the side. So thirdly the scratch built sides. On the positive it has used the ends, floor, under gubins and bogies of the kit and the sides took just over a night to make.

I still have to bend round the angle fitted to the side below the sole bar.

I some how feel I should finish these before starting something else.

Richard

 

Are those "lowmacs", GE Mac K's?  if so, are they etched kits by D&S or some other manufacturer?

[Andy Hayter]

That is a very attractive cart. I would imagine it is a hay cart as it is designed for light high loads. I would not have thought it suitable for root crops, which would probably be carted in a waggon or tumbril.

I am sure you are right that the cart is designed for light loads such as hay (mown and later returned to the animals) and wheat/barley (possibly brought into the barns for threshing - if not done in the fields with the new fangled steam contraptions.

 

However would a thrifty farmer leave his wagon unused for 6-8 months of the year, or would he put a few low boards round the sides to carry other goods?

[Poggy1165]

To go back to the bogie coal wagons:

 

They were built several years before Immingham opened. They were highly unsuited to 'typical' coal traffic, as your average coal merchant wanted his coal to arrive in a ten ton (or better still eight ton) wagon that could be easily and relatively quickly unloaded by hand. Thirty or forty tons at once was way too much for this sort of user, in most cases. I would guess that the big utility customers (electricity works and the like) rarely if ever had the necessary facilities. Typically they would either tip their wagons or drop through the bottom doors - ideally hopper wagons. 

 

I'm not sure they were ever used regularly for anything but loco coal. Coming across the Pennines the rule was that wagons for Gorton shed should be at the head of the train. If it happened to be a bogie coal wagon with vacuum pipes, all the better for train control on the downward bits.

 

Presumably the GC only sent them to be filled with loco coal at places where they knew the screens were suitable. Maybe (I haven't studied the coal contracts) the GC simply didn't deal with Messrs Crappy Coal Co (No Pit Modernisation since 1794) Ltd. Of course, when they arrived at a shed, the poor old Shed coalmen would have to unload the massive wagons by hand. Possibly the ultimate demise of these wagons was connected to the arrival of 'cenotaph' type coaling plants in LNER days, because obviously these bogie wagons would have been useless once those plants were installed at the big sheds.

[Edwardian]

I am sure you are right that the cart is designed for light loads such as hay (mown and later returned to the animals) and wheat/barley (possibly brought into the barns for threshing - if not done in the fields with the new fangled steam contraptions.

 

However would a thrifty farmer leave his wagon unused for 6-8 months of the year, or would he put a few low boards round the sides to carry other goods?

 

You are, I think, correct to say that vehicles would be used throughout the year, and for economic reasons.

 

A farm might well have a cart (this is a cart as it has 2 wheels) and a waggon (4-wheels).  I am not aware that, in the case of these traditional vehicles, there were specific versions used exclusively for harvest loads.  Rather, I suspect, the carts and waggons might be adapted during harvest times to take higher loads by affixing harvest frames or ladders to each end.   Waggons, which have a greater capacity than carts, rise at the ends any-way, and I have seen pictures of them with harvest loads both with and without ladders.

 

Later, from about the turn of the Century, you might have had a harvest "trolley", essentially a 4-wheel flat-bed with ladders at each end, as an alternative to a waggon. Traditional waggons in their essential form date from the mid-eighteenth century, but would have been a relatively expensive bit of kit to have built new by 1900. 

 

In East Anglia and the East Midlands there was even a vehicle known as the hermaphrodite, a two-wheeled cart that could be converted to a four wheel waggon at harvest time. Their rationale was that smaller farms could not afford to have such vehicles standing idle for most of the year. Carts were much more suitable for the heavy loads of autumn and spring, when the ground is soft.  At harvest time, a front axle section is added together harvest frames/ladders.

 

This is a cart.  With the ladders it is a hay or harvest cart, so, while I think you are likely to be correct in assuming that it would be used for other loads at other times, I suspect it would have run without ladders in such cases.  If the layout is set in August, it is likely to be carting wheat sheaves in the form modelled.

 

That, at any rate, is the conclusion I am presently driven to by my fairly limited knowledge of the subject.  Further and better information is always welcome!    

[richard i]

Great layout and very interesting thread, one question though would cars of this quality have been carried open on lowmacs where they would get covered in smuts and soot. Around this period the railway company's would have had a good selection of covered carriage trucks (CCT) for this type of traffic and the lowmacs used for things like agricultural equipment etc. CCT's would have been loaded the same way from an end ramp as they were equipped with opening end doors. Sorry just my thoughts. Steve

Thankfully have several agricultural loads that need moving too, so I can change the load.

[richard i]

Are those "lowmacs", GE Mac K's?  if so, are they etched kits by D&S or some other manufacturer?

Lowmac is from Dapol it is the simple plastic kit just with new wheels.

[richard i]

You are, I think, correct to say that vehicles would be used throughout the year, and for economic reasons.

 

A farm might well have a cart (this is a cart as it has 2 wheels) and a waggon (4-wheels).  I am not aware that, in the case of these traditional vehicles, there were specific versions used exclusively for harvest loads.  Rather, I suspect, the carts and waggons might be adapted during harvest times to take higher loads by affixing harvest frames or ladders to each end.   Waggons, which have a greater capacity than carts, rise at the ends any-way, and I have seen pictures of them with harvest loads both with and without ladders.

 

Later, from about the turn of the Century, you might have had a harvest "trolley", essentially a 4-wheel flat-bed with ladders at each end, as an alternative to a waggon. Traditional waggons in their essential form date from the mid-eighteenth century, but would have been a relatively expensive bit of kit to have built new by 1900

In East Anglia and the East Midlands there was even a vehicle known as the hermaphrodite, a two-wheeled cart that could be converted to a four wheel waggon at harvest time. Their rationale was that smaller farms could not afford to have such vehicles standing idle for most of the year. Carts were much more suitable for the heavy loads of autumn and spring, when the ground is soft.  At harvest time, a front axle section is added together harvest frames/ladders.

 

This is a cart.  With the ladders it is a hay or harvest cart, so, while I think you are likely to be correct in assuming that it would be used for other loads at other times, I suspect it would have run without ladders in such cases.  If the layout is set in August, it is likely to be carting wheat sheaves in the form modelled.

 

That, at any rate, is the conclusion I am presently driven to by my fairly limited knowledge of the subject.  Further and better information is always welcome!

 

It might have to go into a barn on the next board which has yet to be built.

[Edwardian]

Lowmac is from Dapol it is the simple plastic kit just with new wheels.

 

Thanks. That is interesting, because I was planning to buy the Dapol kit to see if I could bash it into a GE Mac K.   Clearly great minds think alike .... 

[richard i]

Thanks. That is interesting, because I was planning to buy the Dapol kit to see if I could bash it into a GE Mac K.   Clearly great minds think alike .... 

The old Hornby one is very close to the GCR ones so i have one to have a go at to back date it.

Progress of course posted on here.

Richard

 

edited for awful spelling, it is not even late over here.

Edited July 29, 2016 by richard i

[James Harrison]

The old Hornby one is very close to the GCR ones so i have one to have a go at to back date it.

Progress of course posted on here.

Richard

 

edited for awful spelling, it is not even late over here.

 

I never knew that.  (I'll have to find one too now and add it to the ever-growing projects pile).  Incidentally, the Dapol lowmac is close to the GER types... and the GCR inherited from the LCDR a couple of machinery wagons which bore a very strong resemblance to the GER Mac K (I'm repeating from the Tatlow GNR/GCR/GER wagon book here). 

Edited July 31, 2016 by James Harrison

[Edwardian]

Incidentally, the Dapol lowmac is close to the GER types... and the GCR inherited from the LCDR a couple of machinery wagons which bore a very strong resemblance to the GER Mac K (I'm repeating from the Tatlow GNR/GCR/GER wagon book here). 

 

That is good to know.  Thank you. I have a photo (Tatlow book!) and a drawing with dimensions for the Mac K.  It had struck me that the Dapol Lowmac was perhaps close enough to form the basis of a conversion, but I had not acquired the kit and checked against the drawing.