Jump to content

Recommended Posts

Posted (edited)
On 22/07/2020 at 22:19, Keith Turbutt said:

Yes Clive,

 

As Richard has already said, we are  holding our meetings in the garden in the open but running trains which can be viewed with the double doors open at the back of the garage. This works ok while the weather permits.

We're looking forward to seeing what Richard is going to bring next week. Hope you can join us sometime.

 

You will recognize the faces in the picture below which was taken the previous week before the schools broke up so Richard wasn't there.

 

Cheers

Keith00001XTR_00003_BURST20200706151251.jpg.0d944bda33491ee7903cb4ad775f42c3.jpg

It is good to see Richard can go and visit our older friends in their care home now.     :punish:

 

 

PS, Tell John he might be trying to get that job in Debenhams this Xmas but I don't think they have forgotten the incident last time when he kicked the kid off his lap and asked the mum to sit on it as he had a surprise for her. He does look the part already, I will give him that. 

Edited by Clive Mortimore

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 minutes ago, Clive Mortimore said:

I don't think they have forgotten the indecent last time ......

Was it that bad!  In which case he'll have no chance! 

 

Jim

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Caley Jim said:

Was it that bad!  In which case he'll have no chance! 

 

Jim

Thanks for that Jim

 

Dyslexia strikes again. 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Question here.

when did train alarms get fitted? Would they have been fitted new to carriages built in 1900 or fitted later? 
I can not see it on any early photos, but then it was only fitted at one end so I do not know if it is just hidden in all the photos I have looked at. 
many thanks

Richard
 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

"On 21st September of that year [1899] it was reported that agreement between the railway companies had been reached on the standard means of communication between passengers and train crew; this was to be achieved by partial application of the air or vacuum brake. In mid-1900 the Carriage & Wagon Committee was asked to fit the equipment on Midland carriages, but progress was slow because the manufacturers had been overwhelmed with the demand from all the railways. In April 1901 176 carriages had been equipped and 70 were in hand." [R.E. Lacy & G. Dow, Midland Railway Carriages (Wild Swan, 1986)]. (That is out of around 3,500 passenger-carrying vehicles, so it wasn't happening overnight!) 

  • Informative/Useful 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
49 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

"On 21st September of that year [1899] it was reported that agreement between the railway companies had been reached on the standard means of communication between passengers and train crew; this was to be achieved by partial application of the air or vacuum brake. In mid-1900 the Carriage & Wagon Committee was asked to fit the equipment on Midland carriages, but progress was slow because the manufacturers had been overwhelmed with the demand from all the railways. In April 1901 176 carriages had been equipped and 70 were in hand." [R.E. Lacy & G. Dow, Midland Railway Carriages (Wild Swan, 1986)]. (That is out of around 3,500 passenger-carrying vehicles, so it wasn't happening overnight!) 

Thank you.
This is far more detail than I could have hoped for and on those numbers it looks realistic that it would take 5 years to get to all the carriages. I am assuming on reflection that the 3500 carriages are midlands not the total number in the country? 

therefore not fitted to these from the start. That is one less job.

richard

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, richard i said:

Thank you.
This is far more detail than I could have hoped for and on those numbers it looks realistic that it would take 5 years to get to all the carriages. I am assuming on reflection that the 3500 carriages are midlands not the total number in the country? 

therefore not fitted to these from the start. That is one less job.

richard

 

Yes, one year in and the Midland was barely 7% of the way through the job. Presumably sets of carriages for long-distance expresses were being done first. What was happening with newly-built stock, I'm unsure. Carriages built c. 1900/1 to orders placed in late 1899 had the eyelets for the outside cord; unfortunately there's a dearth of as-built photos over the next few years. 

  • Thanks 1
  • Informative/Useful 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Yes, one year in and the Midland was barely 7% of the way through the job. Presumably sets of carriages for long-distance expresses were being done first. What was happening with newly-built stock, I'm unsure. Carriages built c. 1900/1 to orders placed in late 1899 had the eyelets for the outside cord; unfortunately there's a dearth of as-built photos over the next few years. 

Thank you, I will look for the tell tell signs.

richard 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Today I got into the books and asked questions at the club. 
the short answer is that both ends need to be flat and have windows like the first brake does already. 
9D32CF4D-818A-4696-808B-ED181E5B8AD8.jpeg.d0f11f4ecda02f01aa1413e3ca7ee9bd.jpeg

the third also needs a small ducket on the side about 3 to 6” deep Which needs fitting. They also need ladders fitted at the end or curv handrails depending on which train they go in.

All carriages need small hanging steps at the end of each buffer beam. Plus lamp brackets. 
At least I know what I need to do, though altering the end/ scratch-building it’s replacement  is going to be a pain.

but once you know it, it has to be done. 

richard

  • Like 5

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
31 minutes ago, richard i said:

At least I know what I need to do, though altering the end/ scratch-building it’s replacement  is going to be a pain.

but once you know it, it has to be done

A truly “finescale attitude”, Richard.

So much so, that it inspired a blog post!

Edited by Regularity
Typo.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
26 minutes ago, Regularity said:

A truly “finescale attitude”, Richard.

So much so, that it inspired a blog post!

I read your blog. Thanks for the kind words. 
richard 

  • Friendly/supportive 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Richard,

Further to our discussions about windows in the ends of the brakes, in a conversation with Jim this morning he said that the Midland often had curving handrails for access to the roof over rear windows in the brakes , so it is quite possible that this was the case in the photos you showed me yesterday. 

Looking at the drawings in Historic Carriage Drawings, LMS and Constituents by David Jenkinson there are several examples of this.

Yesterday I was concerned about the placing of the footsteps with these handrails where there was a window but the drawings clearly show that there is room for footsteps when there is a rear window.

In conclusion, if I were you, I would put windows in the ends of the brakes where there is a suggestion of this in the photo as this seems to have been GC policy.

Cheers

Keith

 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thanks Keith,

I have been really searching and I think the answer is more complex than even I thought. The pictures below might help explain. 
the third brake has the small duckets 

the first brake has the large duckets. 
The third brake seems to have the end fitted to the model of the first at The moment. They seemed to not have ladders but did have the curved handrails. 
5F2D7CC9-B9C7-421C-A6B8-2BD0271D3992.jpeg.b9dbd25b4dc1b3e77588350c5a711967.jpeg

the first brake may not have had a door at the end! The vacuum pipe seems to come up into that space. It also looks to have a single panel across the top like the steam railmotor and three bottom panels. Am I seeing things?

869B0B44-3691-46FA-B1B6-A30A2B67485F.jpeg.f64ff2e6f422b18daa259c9188906037.jpeg

if this is the case then I need to swap the flat end to the third from the first and make a completely new one for the first.

Happy to hear views on this.

Richard

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi Richard,

That second photo is a great find, where did you get it. It seems to be some sort of event judging by all those top hats and everyone gathered round, It looks like Marylebone? Is that the 3 coach clerestory dining set you are building?

 

Coming back to the brake ends, there is certainly no corridor connection at the flat brake end. By zooming in you can just make out the footsteps coming up from both sides forming a triangular arrangement with one step at the top in the centre - no room for a corridor connection. Could this mean all brake ends were without corridor connections? As we said before 'bow ends' helped to keep the corridor connections closer together, so why would they put a flat end on a brake if it had a corridor connection?  Did brake ends with large duckets have flat ends and no corridor while brakes with small duckets (more modern?) have bow ends with corridor connections. It gets curiouser and curiouser!

 

I expect Jim is following this and it would be interesting to have his views.

 

Cheers

Keith

 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
20 hours ago, richard i said:

 

869B0B44-3691-46FA-B1B6-A30A2B67485F.jpeg.f64ff2e6f422b18daa259c9188906037.jpeg

 

 

Never, in the course of British railway carriage design, has a new style of guard's ducket generated so much interest among enthusiasts.

  • Funny 5

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Never, in the course of British railway carriage design, has a new style of guard's ducket generated so much interest among enthusiasts.

Alas, the story is not over yet. It is also not the ducket which in question, but what the end looks like. 
Also that end of the first train leaving marylebone is not the right type of carriage. It is close but the three not two compartment version. Does that matter? Maybe not but luckily (?) the other two trains that day did have the right type.

2EA8AAAF-EB9A-4A7B-980B-B72CA5A3E2AB.jpeg.537c686b161c780fc11ff62437fe9255.jpeg

i also found a drawing however it muddies the water. It has a different end to the one shown. Clearly a flat end rather than bowed, but also has a corridor connection.  Irritatingly it only has one end drawn when clearly they are different. Does it show windows in the end in the plan from above? I do not think so, but were they there? I think they were there as all other brakes seemed to have them. 
51ABD580-1D93-4A40-920D-A43D8A83C4D0.jpeg.6d368cf17d31d709fc68610f05ec9f76.jpeg

do these help anyone have a clearer opinion?

All views gratefully received.

Richard 

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, Keith Turbutt said:

Hi Richard,

That second photo is a great find, where did you get it. It seems to be some sort of event judging by all those top hats and everyone gathered round, It looks like Marylebone? Is that the 3 coach clerestory dining set you are building?

 

Coming back to the brake ends, there is certainly no corridor connection at the flat brake end. By zooming in you can just make out the footsteps coming up from both sides forming a triangular arrangement with one step at the top in the centre - no room for a corridor connection. Could this mean all brake ends were without corridor connections? As we said before 'bow ends' helped to keep the corridor connections closer together, so why would they put a flat end on a brake if it had a corridor connection?  Did brake ends with large duckets have flat ends and no corridor while brakes with small duckets (more modern?) have bow ends with corridor connections. It gets curiouser and curiouser!

 

I expect Jim is following this and it would be interesting to have his views.

 

Cheers

Keith

 

Keith,

I agree with you but see my answer above, the goal posts have moved. Any views? Do like the third or go for the different design? 
yes it was a big event . The first day of running on the London extension. And yes that is the dining set which was built by the gcr at the same time. 
Richard 

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Richard,

I spoke to Keith earlier and we discussed this but I had not seen your last post with the fresh images. Can't add a lot to be honest, the drawing appears to be a 'diagram' produced for the operating departments. These were invariably light on detail and as noted elsewhere can have errors. Going on the vents that does appear to be the bow end as you say.

 

Could it be a diagram was issued for a rebuild? That is to say maybe the gangway was added later. This happened with some Midland brake thirds with no gangway at the brake end. 

 

Hopefully the weather will let us get together next week. Look forward to seeing progress!

 

All the best,

Jim.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 hours ago, jimwal said:

Richard,

I spoke to Keith earlier and we discussed this but I had not seen your last post with the fresh images. Can't add a lot to be honest, the drawing appears to be a 'diagram' produced for the operating departments. These were invariably light on detail and as noted elsewhere can have errors. Going on the vents that does appear to be the bow end as you say.

 

Could it be a diagram was issued for a rebuild? That is to say maybe the gangway was added later. This happened with some Midland brake thirds with no gangway at the brake end. 

 

Hopefully the weather will let us get together next week. Look forward to seeing progress!

 

All the best,

Jim.

I am coming to the same conclusion. Drawing is not original as it has battery boxes rather than gas supply. So perhaps when the update happened. It also shows Two doorS at the far end where as the kit has a door and a big window. The other side is right and drawing matches photos so kit needs altering! - I should have been slower with the initial build. 
the photo clearly shows a french grey stripe across the whole back under the windows and a tall vacuum pipe. 
But when was the change? Back to the photos I feel. 
richard

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yes, I think we are getting confused because the information gathered is from different dates.

I agree the drawing appears to be later ie not 'as built' and the corridor connection may well have been added later. The heading on the drawing  'built by Cravens 1899' may have merely been a way of describing the coach - not necessarily showing it 'as built'. Does the handwritten crossing say 'condemned vans 1935' ?

 

You say above 'Also that end of the first train leaving marylebone is not the right type of carriage. It is close but the three not two compartment version'. As you are building this dining set, does that mean you don't have the correct brake end for this dining set?

 

I think you have now worked out all the possible options and you now have to go with your gut feeling based on the period you want to model these coaches.

 

Finally, Jim said 'Hopefully the weather will let us get together next week.' I know you said you will be on holiday anyway, but the 10 day forecast for HP shows rain 'all day' Monday!

 

Not sure if these comments are of any help but it's certainly fun.

 

Cheers

Keith 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, Keith Turbutt said:

Yes, I think we are getting confused because the information gathered is from different dates.

I agree the drawing appears to be later ie not 'as built' and the corridor connection may well have been added later. The heading on the drawing  'built by Cravens 1899' may have merely been a way of describing the coach - not necessarily showing it 'as built'. Does the handwritten crossing say 'condemned vans 1935' ?

 

You say above 'Also that end of the first train leaving marylebone is not the right type of carriage. It is close but the three not two compartment version'. As you are building this dining set, does that mean you don't have the correct brake end for this dining set?

 

I think you have now worked out all the possible options and you now have to go with your gut feeling based on the period you want to model these coaches.

 

Finally, Jim said 'Hopefully the weather will let us get together next week.' I know you said you will be on holiday anyway, but the 10 day forecast for HP shows rain 'all day' Monday!

 

Not sure if these comments are of any help but it's certainly fun.

 

Cheers

Keith 

Keith

i think you are right, in the end I am going to have to make a decision.
The dining cars moved around so the end brakes would only matter if I wanted to model that train specifically. 

I will look again and might post images if I spot more to the pattern. 
Richard 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Have you a copy of George Dow's "Great Central Recalled"?  Pages 16,17 and 18 there's a series of photographs of the inaugral train.  There's an interesting rear three-quarter view of the train on page 18. 

  • Like 1
  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, James Harrison said:

Have you a copy of George Dow's "Great Central Recalled"?  Pages 16,17 and 18 there's a series of photographs of the inaugral train.  There's an interesting rear three-quarter view of the train on page 18. 

I do and they have guided my thinking above especially p17.  However if I do not want to model the opening day then I will take a look to see if I can work out when the change happened to see what gives the most flexibility. I see it like modeling the A4 silver link. With short buffers would limit it to a very short time so the longer buffers is the more flexible option. 
richard 

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The drawing shown above is from a Carriage Diagram Book. Each railway had such books and they only showed a very basic outline and basic dimensions.

 

There would have been a page for each type of carriage and also details of the numbers in an index.

 

A full diagram book could be very thick and run to many pages.

 

The 1935 dated note would have been added to the book in LNER to indicate when the vehicles were withdrawn. I may be wrong but I think it reads Jan 15 1935, rather than van.

 

The different ends are a new one to me and I can only think that the carriages were designed to run in a set, with the bow ends between the carriages and a flat end at either end of the rake.

 

The drawing of the same vehicle in Dow (Appendix Vol 2) is clearly based on the drawing in the Diagram Book (George Dow would have had access or maybe even obtained a copy when he worked for the LNER). The intermediate carriages all have two bow ends.

 

The roof vents are a clue. The nearest train, with the clerestory dining set, has a row of small vents down one side and twin vents on the other, an indication that it has a corridor down the RH side. The photo quality is not great but the one in the next platform looks to have two rows of bigger vents, which would suggest non corridor stock.

 

Most interesting photos and full of little things to investigate! Great fun.

  • Informative/Useful 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Richard, I have only just twigged what you are doing. I though you were working on some Worsley Works etches. If you are building the D & S Brake 1st, it includes a design fault that didn't get picked up until it was too late. As etched, the brake end and the compartment end are reversed to where they should be.

 

I have never heard of anybody finding a sensible way to correct it but if you are looking for a GCR carriage that matches the kit, you won't find one!

  • Informative/Useful 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

We have placed cookies on your device to help make this website better. You can adjust your cookie settings, otherwise we'll assume you're okay to continue.