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Please do show it here too. I have spare hinges if you want, though to be honest scrap etch folded into an L shape world work just as well. I also have dimensions for the truss rodding and a spare bow end if they are of use. The brake end depends on when you want to model. From flat and no corridor to corridor with ladders then corridor with steps. 
It is looking good so far. 
from what research I have done, ( which just scratches the surface), it appears that there might have been handed brakes, with some having corridor on the right and some on left. This might be a load of rubbish though. 
richard 

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1 hour ago, James Harrison said:

I've had good results lining carriages with one of these:

 

http://www.mylocosound.co.uk/?page_id=12

 

The raised beading on a panelled carriage side makes for a fairly easy guide to get a ruler on to guide it.  

That is a great find. As I don’t smoke the lighter fluid would need to be found. Could be a fun experiment. And at just over thirty smackers not an outrageous purchase. 
thank you

richard 

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The books I was able to peruse (in my dads collection), coupled with the Steve Banks website, all suggest that the Brake/Van Firsts all started off with the brake ends at the London end of the of the coach (and by extension that end of any carriage set), meaning that the corridors were all on the right side (looking up the platform at Marylebone).  The oddity, probably not the only one, does appear to be the Dining train where First class accomodation appears to be placed immediately behind the loco in either direction - this would mean those passengers would be the closest to the exit and any waiting carriages to continue with their journeys.

 

Extra confusion - UP and DOWN directions....  LNER/BR had London as being in the UP direction, generally.  The GCR starting off from Manchester had that city as the UP destination originally, and it remains unclear (I hope someone in the know can help?) whether this remained the case after the London extension had started operating.

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Thanks, standard practice to have firsts at the London end for most railways.

now I have another issue. Looking at painting. How long do carriages carry a paint job?

I ask because I can find pictures in French grey and brown and in varnished wood, but am struggling to find definitive pictures in brown and cream. Built 1900 ish. Brown and cream comes in 1903/4 so too early for a repaint but varnished wood from 1910 so would they make the jump from first livery to third? 10 years between reprints?

what I thought of as brown and cream have cream below the windows but not on the raised uprights between the paneling, and yet that is all one piece of wood,(nominally). Do these photos just show dirty caught in the panel edges? 
this one even has one carriage with more brown. Aaaaaah. 
488BEB96-6AF6-4756-9434-1199306FEB60.png.80adf7381e0d0a26f672bb0f81abe53d.png

this is definitely in brown and cream era because of carriages in front of it, but which livery are they in?

BB26B74C-984A-43AC-8580-0EF065579283.jpeg.3ffe91f141ae81c296059f55b0ad366c.jpeg

are there and definitely brown and cream images out there?

I should not think about this just before I go to bed. Milling it around all night.

richard

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It depends on company practice, and available resources, but coaches were unlikely to be left 10 years between repaints in this era. Don't know about the GCR, but 4-6 years seems more likely, based on other companies.

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As an ignorant bystander, it's all rather confusing. The second, third, and fifth photos down on this page of Steve Banks' website are definitely early and show what I expect the French grey livery to look like, with the French grey covering the entire carriage side from the lower waist panel beading upwards, panels, beading, and all. In the brown and cream livery, the beading was painted brown, so the last two photos show this livery, as do your two photos posted above - the tell-tale is the darker colour at the eves. But in your first photo, the waist panels of the leading carriage appear to be brown too - a Great Western-inspired aberration? 

 

But Banks' page definitely shows Parker carriages in Brown and cream.

 

Were GC expresses down from London to Sheffield then up to Manchester?

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Thanks for your take on it. I just feel I am missing something as my side, ( yet to be cleaned up), seems to be too brown. That is the colour which hits me first, where as in the photos I see a lot more cream. 
EEF6A565-992D-4F11-A556-72AF97168320.jpeg.0bb2f71866011d96f9ce03e9b81e3b69.jpeg

if so what of what is brown on the model should also be cream? A line under the windows? If so how does that relate to the panels and the uprights? 
any thoughts gratefully received. This might be why some modelers do not paint their carriages, it saves these questions needing to be raised. 
richard

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2 hours ago, richard i said:

if so what of what is brown on the model should also be cream? 

 

Looking at the blurry photos of photos posted here,

together with the second photo in your post above; I'd say that the window surrounds ought to be cream but there are inner window frames that are brown, or perhaps varnished wood. I think this is clear in this photo - the part to be painted cream is quite narrow but it has some depth, which makes the cream prominent in train photos taken at the usual angle. It seems that your etched sides don't quite reproduce this - it looks to me as if whoever designed them followed the diagrams without looking closely enough at photos. So there may need to be an element of compromise. Perhaps you'd be better off with the French grey livery?

 

They are extremely elegant carriages, aren't they?

Edited by Compound2632
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4 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Looking at the blurry photos of photos posted here,

together with the second photo in your post above; I'd say that the window surrounds ought to be cream but there are inner window frames that are brown, or perhaps varnished wood. It seems that your etched sides don't quite reproduce this, so there may need to be an element of compromise. Perhaps you'd be better off with the French grey livery?

Better off with French grey. I keep thinking that as the livery gets more and more complicated. But then where would we be without a challenge. 
richard 

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Can I make a respectful suggestion for painting the panels without getting too much paint on the beading?

 

Thin the paint, load the brush (by how much will depend on the size of the panel) and place it in the centre of the panel.  Now use the tip of the brush to push the paint over to one corner and then 'tease' it around the edges of the panel.  If the consistency is right capillary action will readily run it round the angle between panel and beading.   For very thin panels it is often enough to put a spot of paint at one end of the panel and it will run along the rest.   You may require more than one coat to cover adequately, but each one is applied in the same way.  I'm not suggesting that no touching up of the beading will be required, but I do this in between each coat in the panels with a bow pen.  This is how I do mine on 2MM scale CR coaches starting here.

 

BTW, the 'inner window frames' which @Compound2632 mentions are termed bolections and were Varnished mahogany on CR coaches.

 

Jim

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1 minute ago, Caley Jim said:

BTW, the 'inner window frames' which @Compound2632 mentions are termed bolections and were Varnished mahogany on CR coaches.

 

I dissent from my learned friend's opinion. Bolection mouldings project outwards from the beading, as on the fixed lights of the carriage in this photo [DY 1954]:

 

584891527_DY1954TheatricalTrain.jpg.fa8c4dd31f660be2df292d8dbe1330ac.jpg

 

This crop from a drawing of a similar carriage shows how they work, holding the window glass in place against the structural framing of the carriage body  [crop from MRSC Item 88-D0001]:

 

1703670317_MidlandMRSCItem88-D0001D26230firstDrg547plancrop.jpg.e1c3e5340d63fc12d4e3feb09f43729a.jpg

 

These Parker carriages have a method of construction similar to that of a Wolverton diner, where all the windows are held in frames that are like droplight frames, though they're not necessarily droplights:

 

810121092_LNWD29No.77kitchenexteriorwindows.JPG.2ede96fafcf5dc9f3637d7949421bdf2.JPG

 

[LNWR D29 dining saloon No. 77, preserved at the Buckinghamshire Railway Centre. Own photo.]

 

In fact Parker's design is very closely modelled on the first generation of West Coast Joint Stock dining saloons, with opening toplights set in the frame, as in this photo.

 

 

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23 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

In fact Parker's design is very closely modelled on the first generation of West Coast Joint Stock dining saloons, with opening toplights set in the frame, as in this photo.

 

Which, on reflection, is hardly surprising. If you're trying to break into the London-Manchester business, you'd be foolish not to have a good hard look at what your competitors were offering, pick the best, and try to outdo it. There are also features in common with the first generation of Midland square-light clerestories, new to the St Pancras-Manchester trains in 1898, while building gangwayed carriages is well up-to-the minute, as the LNWR didn't have them on London-Lancashire trains until 1898, having introduced them on Anglo-Scottish (WCJS) trains in 1892.

Edited by Compound2632
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4 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

I knew you knew but my didactic impulses got the better of me.

Well, it happens to the rest/best of us...

 

(signed) “The tendentious one”.

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2 hours ago, Caley Jim said:

Can I make a respectful suggestion for painting the panels without getting too much paint on the beading?

 

Thin the paint, load the brush (by how much will depend on the size of the panel) and place it in the centre of the panel.  Now use the tip of the brush to push the paint over to one corner and then 'tease' it around the edges of the panel.  If the consistency is right capillary action will readily run it round the angle between panel and beading.   For very thin panels it is often enough to put a spot of paint at one end of the panel and it will run along the rest.   You may require more than one coat to cover adequately, but each one is applied in the same way.  I'm not suggesting that no touching up of the beading will be required, but I do this in between each coat in the panels with a bow pen.  This is how I do mine on 2MM scale CR coaches starting here.

 

BTW, the 'inner window frames' which @Compound2632 mentions are termed bolections and were Varnished mahogany on CR coaches.

 

Jim

Thanks, this is sort of the method I was trying though I think my paint was thicker than you are suggesting. 
richard 

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2 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

I dissent from my learned friend's opinion. Bolection mouldings project outwards from the beading, as on the fixed lights of the carriage in this photo [DY 1954]:

 

584891527_DY1954TheatricalTrain.jpg.fa8c4dd31f660be2df292d8dbe1330ac.jpg

 

This crop from a drawing of a similar carriage shows how they work, holding the window glass in place against the structural framing of the carriage body  [crop from MRSC Item 88-D0001]:

 

1703670317_MidlandMRSCItem88-D0001D26230firstDrg547plancrop.jpg.e1c3e5340d63fc12d4e3feb09f43729a.jpg

 

These Parker carriages have a method of construction similar to that of a Wolverton diner, where all the windows are held in frames that are like droplight frames, though they're not necessarily droplights:

 

810121092_LNWD29No.77kitchenexteriorwindows.JPG.2ede96fafcf5dc9f3637d7949421bdf2.JPG

 

[LNWR D29 dining saloon No. 77, preserved at the Buckinghamshire Railway Centre. Own photo.]

 

In fact Parker's design is very closely modelled on the first generation of West Coast Joint Stock dining saloons, with opening toplights set in the frame, as in this photo.

 

 

The diners are very closely related and that close up photo of the window does give much food for thought about the way forward. I want to ultimately do 2 of them in brown and cream to match the dining set in that livery when I can get that set together. I like consistency of livery along a trains length though can have different liveries on different rakes of carriages. Though if I really can’t get it to work / live with the result I will have to look at doing them in French grey.......or mahogany. 

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1 hour ago, richard i said:

Thanks, this is sort of the method I was trying though I think my paint was thicker than you are suggesting. 

It needs to be really quite thin.  I always use thinned paint for everything (I don't have an airbrush) as I find several thin coats produce a better finish and don't obscure the detail.  You can see from that first post I linked to that the coverage is not great, except round the edges,  and several coats are needed.  However, you don't need to go as close to the edges with subsequent coats.

 

Jim

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I think I might have a solution to the cream window surrounds. James linked to a pen which could draw a 0.25 line which I could draw in once the window frame is painted a varnished wood. Thus getting two colours on something only 0.5mm wide. Maybe.

I might do one side totally to see if it works and necessary go to plan C or D which ever we are up to now. 
richard 

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Change of plan. I went with paint light colour and worry about dark one if necessary.

CD2381E0-D659-4EE2-9B5E-414067783C84.jpeg.1e8f39601bfc89103ea3664523a501de.jpeg

this is as far as I got. I think the neatness is improving. It certainly looks more gcr. 
now touch up the brown and add any other colour as needed.

unless anyone has more/ better suggestions. I am trying to get it to look good. 
behind the double doors handles in that panel - grey? 
richard  

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Hi Richard, I've located the instructions for my Van First (buried under a pile of off-cuts), and I'll go word for word what Andy Gibbs put in his notes regarding the GCR liveries for the Parkers-

 

New to 1905 - all carriages finished in the French Grey and Dark Brown livery, lined in gold.  Coats of arms on the sides and letters/numerals were shaded black.

 

1905 to 1910 - As the grey livery was not a success, cream replaced this colour.  This occurred from about 1905 as the carriages were overhauled.  Lining, letters and numerals were as the grey period.

 

1910 to Grouping - It is thought that these vehicles were painted a teak shade.  Letters and numbers were now gold/pale yellow shaded red.  Class designations were carried on the lower part of the doors.

 

LNER period - The parker stock would have been painted in the LNER teak shade, virtually the same as the GC colour.  The LNER renumbered all GC stock.  This consisted of adding a 5 prefix, for example Parker First 1260 would become LNER 51260.

 

He does credit John Quick with his historical notes (you've probably already picked either his brains or the GRCS in general?).

 

Do you have suitable running numbers picked out for your selection of carriages?

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Thanks that lines up with the change is styles known from elsewhere, however, I do think he is being slightly short hand on the layout of the painting as there is clearly more brown in the cream days. I am going to settle on the arrangement I have in the post above, as it looks near correct, though the confirmation of lining colours is useful. 
Richard 

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Andy Gibbs had a full list in his instructions.  Here it is (might not be fully complete...) -

 

Five compartment First - 1260 to 1269 (1261 is labelled as having 10ft bogies, unsure about the others)

Three compartment Van First (should this not be Two compartment?) - 1251 to 1253 (1251 mentioned as having 8ft 6in bogies)

Buffet car Three and Five compartment Third - 1306 to 1310 (1307 mentioned as having three compartments, all are noted as having been rebuilt as restaurant cars pre-Grouping)

Three compartment Van Third - 1270 to 1278, also 1613 & 1614 (1276, 1613 & 1614 mentioned as having 9ft 2in bogies)

Six compartment Third - 1279 to 1289

Luggage composite - 1290 to 1301

 

As I mention the list might not be complete, indeed it misses the Two compartment Van Firsts (hence the query) and the lack of details about the regular bogies is quite frustrating.  Hope this helps with your builds.

 

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