Scottish Locos That Missed Preservation.

[andytrains]

I have come across a leaflet from the Scottish Preservation Society, dated February 1963.

It states on page 2 of the leaflet that Ex-North British, Class A, LNER class N15, number 69138, has been set aside by British Railways, and thus spared the breakers yard.

RCTS book states that it was withdrawn 10/62.

Does anybody know more about what happened to this loco and others apparently set aside and then suddenly scrapped?

 

[DOCJACOB]

I seem to remember the N15 was considered but when inspected was missing a fair amout of bits. J36 Maude was taken in preference?

 

There was a NBR Atlantic 9875 Midlothian was partially resurected from bits lying around in late 30's and was scrapped at begining of WW2 as metal was more important. Thus in theory has unique distinction of being scrapped twice? An NBR Atlantic tender frame currently survives at Boness.

 

A Highland Ben was hidden in back of Aviemore shed but was scrapped either as not "origional" enough or a zealous official got too it before Mr Ness

[Mad McCann]

I believe Ben Alder actually sat at Dawsholm or in Cowlairs for many years and was not actually cut up until 1967. No one has ever given a definitive answer as to why it was scrapped, but it's no secret that the ScR was in the grip of some true vandals at that point.

Why Midlothian's metal was of vital strategic importance in 1939 when those GNR tubs weren't is another matter entirely... 

[Graham Hughes]

I believe Ben Alder actually sat at Dawsholm or in Cowlairs for many years and was not actually cut up until 1967. No one has ever given a definitive answer as to why it was scrapped,

It is supposed to be because it had a Caledonian boiler and was thus not in original condition which was regarded as an important criterion for preservation at the time. Reportedly a Drummond boiler from an M7 tank loco was considered but the idea was rejected and the loco was scrapped. It is sad that locos such as this survived so long and were far easier restoration projects than many that were subsequently rescued. I think the biggest gap of all though is the lack of a G&SWR mainline loco.

 

 

[DOCJACOB]

Unfortunately can't find anymore on the reference regarding the N15 that was offered to either SRPS or even its been possibly suggested to the original NBR Study Group.

 

Ben Alder was latterly fitted with an ex CR boiler which may have been a possible reason for her demise.  She was shunted around bit and a reference exists of her being hidden/stored at Lochgorm, Boat of Garten, St Rollox, Dawsholm, Parkhead (with the other Scottish preserved locos) and Kipps as well. 

 

I did hear something about a new build NBR Atlantic project when the tender frame surfaced??  

[Dava]

The whole scrap line at Bo'Ness in the early 60's was made up of pre-grouping preservation-worthy candidates

 

http://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/4240051

 

The lack of a Pickersgill Caley 4-4-0 when a number survived well into the 1960's at Forfar is also very regrettable. Also the classic NBR C15 and C16 4-4-2 Tanks.

 

Dava

[Aberbrothock]

The whole scrap line at Bo'Ness in the early 60's was made up of pre-grouping preservation-worthy candidates

 

http://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/4240051

 

The lack of a Pickersgill Caley 4-4-0 when a number survived well into the 1960's at Forfar is also very regrettable. Also the classic NBR C15 and C16 4-4-2 Tanks.

 

Dava

Couldn't agree more!  I was on an SLS railtour from Dundee to Auchterhouse in 1962, I think, hauled by a P'gill 440 and thought it would be suitable for saving, but there wasn't the "mass will," to get organised at that time, more's the pity.......

Other obvious candidates would have been J37, another Ivatt cl.2, C16,( a great favourite of mine, being a D & A enthusiast), or even another A2, as Dundee had a choice of three!

[pH]

I would agree with the Pickersgill 4-4-0 (one of the last three in service was dumped at Carstairs until July 1964 at least), the J37 and the NBR 4-4-2T.

 

Some other suggestions:

- Caley Jumbo

- J38 (first LNER group standard design, last ex-LNER class to remain intact, and two of the class were the last Gresley designed engines in service)

- LMS 2P

- Derby-built Fairburn tank (preserved 42073/85 were built at Brighton)

 

Edit to add Fairburn details.

[luckymucklebackit]

I have come across a leaflet from the Scottish Preservation Society, dated February 1963.

It states on page 2 of the leaflet that Ex-North British, Class A, LNER class N15, number 69138, has been set aside by British Railways, and thus spared the breakers yard.

RCTS book states that it was withdrawn 10/62.

Does anybody know more about what happened to this loco and others apparently set aside and then suddenly scrapped?

 

This loco was scrapped by P.W. McLellan, Langloan Coatbridge, in June 1964 having been withdrawn in October 1962 as you state, it was stored at St Margarets from withdrawal until August 1963.  It was then noted at Bathgate on 18/05/64 covered with tarpaulins before it was sold to the breaker later that month

 

 

Jim

                     

[Mad McCann]

The SRPS had funds for one loco and had to make a bit of a painfull choice between the 419 and one of the last J37s. In the end, they made what I believe was the right call, though it's still a shame that one of the big 5F-rated 0-6-0s didn't survive. Wonderful beasts and come to think of it, a subject well worthy of a new kit.

[Bon Accord]

The SRPS had funds for one loco and had to make a bit of a painfull choice between the 419 and one of the last J37s. In the end, they made what I believe was the right call, though it's still a shame that one of the big 5F-rated 0-6-0s didn't survive. Wonderful beasts and come to think of it, a subject well worthy of a new kit.

 

A new kit and a new build, surely an absolutely ideal loco for the BKR or even the crowd at Brechin, being line appropriate. Alas I'll just hold out for the Euro millions and then I'll build my own fleet.

(I'm still trying to find a J37 kit!)

[Aberbrothock]

A new kit and a new build, surely an absolutely ideal loco for the BKR or even the crowd at Brechin, being line appropriate. Alas I'll just hold out for the Euro millions and then I'll build my own fleet.

(I'm still trying to find a J37 kit!)

I have a DMR J37 kit which was acquired a couple of years ago, but has yet to be assembled, however looking at the parts it should make a fine model - all I need is the time to do it!

[Unknown Warrior]

A group set up in January 1962, The Scottish Locomotive Preservation Fund, drew up a list of locos to target for preservation in order of preference, as funds became available:

 

1. Pickersgill 4-4-0 Class 113 or 66.

2. McIntosh 0-6-0 Class 812.

3. Drummond 0-6-0 Class 294 (Jumbo).

4. McIntosh 0-4-4T Class 439 or 19.

5. Drummond 0-4-0 ST.

 

At the time it was felt that CR locos were being withdrawn faster than NBR locos, hence the CR bias. Sadly fund raising was painfully slow and in the end a decision had to be made based on the limited funds available  and 828 (Class 812 0-6-0) was purchased in 1963. At that stage it seemed certain that a McIntosh 0-4-4T was going to be purchased by Scottish Railway Preservation Society, who did acquire 55189 and also J36 Maude and the NBR Drummond 0-4-0ST. So in away 3 out of the 5 on the list made it even if the 0-4-0ST was the NBR (basically similar) version.

 

It is of course very sad that no Jumbo or Pickersgill 4-4-0 made it but may be a new build project one day? However there is a Scottish 8F to overhaul first.

 

There are more details of all the above in Jim MacIntosh's excellent book:"Caley 828 - The Story of a Victorian Locomotive." available from The Caledonian Railway Association or The Scottish Preservation Trust Fund.

 

There are also the tragic sagas of NBR Atlantic Midlothian and HR Ben Alder. Midlothian had been earmarked for preservation at York, overhauled and returned to traffic, in spite of the fact that work had started on scrapping it. Parts were found for the rebuild to full working order. Sadly the needs of war lead to it being scrapped.

 

In some ways the story of Ben Alder is even more tragic. It was set aside for possible preservation on withdrawal about 1952 and moved from one storage place to another, eventually joining other Scottish preserved locos. However it had been fitted with CR boiler by the LMS and so was not deemed original enough to preserve. There was a plan to fit a basically similar L&SWR M7 and a price was quoted. There was even talk of private preservation but it sadly never happened. Another new build project?

 

828 and Maude are, in my view, prime candidates for 00 scale models. They exist, so can be scanned and measured. They are good examples of types that were found in large numbers all over Scotland. They can both be produced in attractive pre-grouping liveries, see photo of 828 at Llangollen SSS3 in 2012. Maude has the added advantage of being one of the locos that served in France during WW1, hence the name, and so would make an excellent model for release in 2018!

[Ian Kirk]

Hi,

 

I was a member of the SRPS in the early 60s.  At that time two locomotives were set aside for possible purchase the Caley 0-4-4T and the ex NB N15. IIRC the prices quoted were around £650 each.  There was still an element of the "auld enemy" going about and arguments were raised about whether the NB or the Caley should take precedence.  We formed the NB group  (nothing to do with the NB study Group - that came later) IIRC despite still being schoolboys  I was the secretary and Richard Hollingworth (now Parkside) was the treasurer.  Sandy McLean was the grown up Chairman.  I persuaded the then Earl of Elgin - the last surviving Director of the NBR to be the Hon Patron.  We raised money in as many ways as possible. Notably selling postcard photos of NB items and Pete Westwaters "Greyprint" loco drawings.  Eventually BR got fed up waiting and issued an ultimatum - buy the locos or they go for scrap. There was more money in the Caley kitty than there was in ours so the SRPS went for the 0-4-4T.  The remainder of our money eventually went towards Maud.

 

best wishes,

 

Ian

[Dava]

I think this shows how much we owe the guys who were around at the time for saving what they could afford to, plus ScR preserving the 4 heritage locos. Of course Ben Alder should not have been lost either. The Bo'Ness museum is a worthy home for the Scottish rail heritage legacy. I'm less sure about Glasgow Riverside, from which a rail escape plan may be considered one day!

 

Dava

[Ian Kirk]

Hi Again,

 

I attach a couple of scans of some of the things we sold. Probably historical documents by now.  Pete's "Greyprints" were produced by drawing on tracing paper and making a contact print on standard photographic paper. ( No photo copiers or scanners then!). The postcard photographs came from a variety of sources. The ones I show here are from the Hurst Nelson collection and I am assuming that the 50 year old permission to publish these from the Motherwell Public Libraries still holds good.

 

The stains on the drawing are Bakers flux from the building of my first  Jingling Geordie.

Some of the younger readers might wonder why if the locos could be bought for what looks to us now a very small price this was not done.  This was in the period before the 1970s galloping inflation and wages were equally small. Even at scrap value this would be the best part of two years wages for some people.  We simply did not have the money and a lot of the enthusiasts of the time were at school, University or starting out in poorly paid apprenticeships.  Even a couple of years after this time a Pilot Officer in the RAF earned IIRC around £600 a year. 

 

The SRPS was only really starting out at this time and was based in a disused station building in Edinburgh on a still active line with no real space to store big items and was looking for a suitable site. Bo ness was many years and several false starts in the future.

 

best wishes,

 

Ian

[R Marshall]

Being English, I've probably got no right to an opinion, but, as I'm a big fan of David Smith and his Tales of the GWSR, I'd like to have seen a Manson 4-6-0 or a a Drummond - perhaps a 4-4-0 or a 2-6-0 "Austrian Goods".

 

GWSR engines didn't seem to survive as long as some other companies - was this just because they were in relatively small numbers?

 

Edited, because I'd remembered the Drummond 0-6-0T No. 9, which did survive, thankfully.

[Graham Hughes]

 

GWSR engines didn't seem to survive as long as some other companies - was this just because they were in relatively small numbers?

 

 

More because the Scottish area of the LMSR was run by ex-Caledonian people I think. That and Whitelegg's rebuilding had ruined a lot of them. One of his Baltic tanks still around today would be something a bit special in the preservation world though.

 

One loco which sadly missed preservation in an earlier era was the GNoSR K class No. 45 that appeared in the Stockton and Darlington centenary parade in 1925. Apparently preservation was considered but the loco eventually went for scrap. It would have been great if that could have survived to the present day.

[vitalspark]

Ben Alder was stored at Kipps shed along with the Caley Coaches and 123 around 1963.

I saw it there and it was definitely assumed it would be preserved at that time..a loss indeed.

 

From a personal point there's no contest I would have saved a Caley Bogie..if ever there was a loco that deserved to be saved for future generations its this one.

In the current enthusiasm for new builds of extinct locos this has to be a candidate surely.

 

Dave 

[Mad McCann]

For me, it always sticks in the craw that the last Reid Atlantic went to the torch "for the war effort" in spite of already being earmarked for preservation. I'll never figure out the logic behind that when other machines of similar vintage survived. The Ben Alder fiasco was another, with the excuse given (after 15 years in safe storage) that it was 'unoriginal', due to having a Caley boiler.

Sounds like a cop-out to me...

[darrel]

I think this shows how much we owe the guys who were around at the time for saving what they could afford to, plus ScR preserving the 4 heritage locos. Of course Ben Alder should not have been lost either. The Bo'Ness museum is a worthy home for the Scottish rail heritage legacy. I'm less sure about Glasgow Riverside, from which a rail escape plan may be considered one day!

Dava

Yep the riverside museum is an abomination much much worse than the previous two Glasgow transport museums. A total waste of money which resulted in less floor space than before.

When it was in its previous location at the Kelvin hall they were offered a class 303 driving trailer (one of the original Glasgow blue train coaches) they turned it down due to a lack of space then took that 12 wheel royal coach instead. Now how many Glaswiegens travelled on that royal coach compared to the blue trains.

I spoke to one moron at the new museum who told me it was not a transport museum, it was a social history museum with a transport theme.

I told him to f$#k off

[vitalspark]

Yep the riverside museum is an abomination much much worse than the previous two Glasgow transport museums. A total waste of money which resulted in less floor space than before.

When it was in its previous location at the Kelvin hall they were offered a class 303 driving trailer (one of the original Glasgow blue train coaches) they turned it down due to a lack of space then took that 12 wheel royal coach instead. Now how many Glaswiegens travelled on that royal coach compared to the blue trains.

I spoke to one moron at the new museum who told me it was not a transport museum, it was a social history museum with a transport theme.

I told him to f$#k off

Like it..I think I'll pay a visit and ask the same question so that I can also tell them to f**k off!

[DCB]

Maybe some new build is the answer, with all the gauging problems afflicting various locos perhaps a new Cardean class loco with the big bogie tender would be a useful performer on mainline railtours,   Low cab no outside cylinders, and that beautiful Blue livery she could become more popular than that scottish themed monstrosity that the NRM seem to be constantly rebuilding.

[Dava]

Good luck with raising the money for this or any new build loco in Scotland, there are probably just not the number of people interested in funding it. There is a hard core of active preservationists restoring what already exists. Unlike England where lined up on the platform at Loughborough today were stalls for the Patriot, Sandringham and Hengist. Who'd have thought?

 

Dava

[Mad McCann]

I think there's the beginnings of a re-awakening in the appreciation of our industrial heritage north of the border - part of an ongoing wider Scots' cultural  renaissance perhaps.

A raising of awareness of the potential for such a project might open public minds to the possibilities offered by such a new-build. I think it's perhaps the initial responsibility of those of us with the passion for such a project to determine how to prepare the ground in which that seed of wider interest can be sown. I think that initial tilling of the ground has to involve making the wider Scots public more aware of the vast heritage, achievements and perhaps even existence(!) of Scotland's erstwhile indigenous railway companies and manufacturing concerns. The fact that we have five fairly healthy company societies must count for something.

 

Dave.